[WikiEN-l] Misogyny is the perfect troll

[Steven Walling]

Well, actually, I am quite offended by the wide usage of pimp as well. I
would even say it's become the "faggot" of misogynistic terms. But honestly,
though I support removing it from userboxes and such as hate speech (look
out! loaded word) I think that Wikipedia is a microcosm of the larger
problem, and sadly, I doubt you're going to get things changed on-wiki so
long as the term is culturally acceptable off wiki.

On 8/30/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/30/07, Steven Walling <steven.walling at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think this thread needs to end if we continue to get so personal.
> Whatever
> > my feelings on the need for a discussion about this kind of
> discrimination
> > on Wikipedia, accusatory comments like "...is misogynist crap.  But
> you're
> > not offended at that at all." are unacceptable. It may be that you were
> > shouted down, even if you had legit arguments, because you ran around
> > proclaiming everyone who disagreed with you to be a misogynist. Let's
> have a
> > civil conversation, or none at all.
> >
> > On 8/30/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 8/30/07, michael west <michawest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > How many editors actually check what gender another editor is? Even
> user
> > > > pages can be vague unless the editor actually states they are male
> or
> > > > female. Personal names don't help Stacey, Kimberley, Chris etc and
> as
> > > for
> > > > edits [[Knitting]] and [[Women in prison film]] are not an
> indication.
> > > >
> > > > Mysogeny doesn't work on Wikipedia for the simple reason that all
> the
> > > female
> > > > editors I know are perhaps stronger willed or ready to cut the BS
> before
> > > it
> > > > happens. Or is it mysogenist to suggest that?
> > > >
> > > > mike33
> > >
> > > Actually it works quite well if you disagree with something misogynist
> > > on Wikipedia--when you think comments like, "gotta keep the pimp hand
> > > strong" are offensive for example.  (Although nicely it turned out to
> > > be a wimp hand, and ain't so strong anymore.)
> > >
> > > So, you've never seen anything misogynist on Wikipedia?  And if you
> > > have, did you speak up?  Again, I suggest that certain people are more
> > > likely to notice it than others.  And others, those comfortable being
> > > a member of the club as it is, less likely.
> > >
> > > I've seen plenty, and when I've spoken up, I've been thoroughly put in
> > > my place, ganged up on by hords of male, and some female, editors
> > > ready to make sure that the boys continue to have a safe place to
> > > play.
> > >
> > > Making a user box declaring yourself a pimp, and connecting it to the
> > > article on pimp, in the ordinary sense of "seller of sexual access to
> > > women's bodies for profit" sense, is misogynist crap.  But you're not
> > > offended at that at all.
> > >
> > > KP
> > >
> I didn't call anyone a misogynist, another editor called someone's
> comment "misogynistic."  I said that people were ignoring the
> potential and very real hurtful nature of the word in order to defend
> someone's supposedly modern use of it--it turned out the user was
> lying to everyone about his use of it, but that's another store.  No,
> someone else used the term "misogynist."
>
> And I didn't call you one by saying you're not offended by that--a
> legitimate comment because no one is outraged, surprised, or even
> interested by people proudly proclaiming themselves pimps on
> Wikipedia. And to me, this is outrageous that nobody even notices it.
>
> And that, that women are degraded on Wikipedia without other editors
> even noticing it, is not civil in any way.
>
> So, whenever I'm invited to a place where women can have civil
> conversations, without being degraded as part of the background noise,
> I'll be sure to let you know there's a place for a civil conversation.
> But when no one cares that folks are proud to declare themselves
> pimps, that that's not one of the user boxes or user names that is
> considered offensive on Wikipedia, even when it is linked to an
> article about pimp in the old fashioned sense of the word, not in the
> vernacular or modern or changed sense, there is no civility.
>
> We're already having none at all.   Civility is a long way off.
>
> KP
>
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