[WikiEN-l] Possible legal violation in the use of a government seal?

[Ray Saintonge]

Benjamin Esham wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote
>>>> Including a picture of a seal is not a use for trademark purposes.
>>>>         
>>> I'm afraid I don't know what you're saying here.  Are you just being
>>> pedantic about my choice of the word "use"?  The County government
>>> certainly seemed to think that we were "using" their seal to some extent
>>> that is in violation of the relevant law.  It's not like we're trying to
>>> pose as a county website; we're just including the image for
>>> illustrative purposes.
>>>       
>> If it ever came to a court argument over this the meaning of "use" would
>> probably be a key issue.  Given the nature of Wikipedia work it is
>> perfectly understandable that we would view "use" in terms of copyright
>> law.  The terms "free use" and "fair use" are so commonplace for us.  Even
>> if we misunderstand those terms it is still from the perspective of
>> copyright law.
>>
>> The distinction may seem pedantic, but I would be inclined to look further
>> into the law that you quoted to see if there is another section defining
>> the term "use".  We do not normally use something by merely showing what
>> it looks like.  Using a seal would most likely arise when it suggests some
>> kind of authority to represent the County.
>>     
> The law states, in part, "such seal shall be used and affixed only [under
> certain conditions]," and "the use of said seal or of any replica or
> simulation  thereof [...] by  any unauthorized person or for any wrongful
> purpose, is prohibited."
>
> Maybe I'll ask the attorney if he can give an opinion on the definition of
> "use".  I don't think that Wikipedia's use of the image qualifies as "using"
> it, but then again IANAL.
>   
As I said before you need to know the answer before you ask the 
attorney.  Attorneys for putative opponents can give amazingly biased 
opinions. There should be more to the law than the two paragraphs that 
you cited.

I note too that you actually live in Livingston County.  With a 
population of only 65,000 it should be easy to get to know who the 
influential people are in the county.  Maintaining contact with a local 
historical society can also be helpful.  See what they think about 
putting the picture in Wikipedia; ask them what kind of information they 
believe should appear in Wikipedia on the county and its communities. 
Consider their advice before adding some of their information.  If the 
legal people want to take a stupid stand on this, these could be useful 
allies.
>>> I have forwarded the attorney's letter to the Commons OTRS people; they
>>> will be able to remove the image from Commons while we try to determine
>>> our legal rights and abilities in this matter.
>>>       
>> I really don't see any need to take it down.
>>     
> Perhaps not, but the gentleman implied that I could be brought up on
> charges.  I'm sure you can understand that I'd like to avoid that if at all
> possible ;-)  That action was just me covering my arse.  
CYOA can too easily be used as an excuse for self-suppressing your own 
rights.  A general observation about lawsuits is that 50% of the lawyers 
are wrong.  Simply "suggesting" that you remove it, and making allusion 
to possible penalties isn't saying very much.  Once you determine in 
your own mind that what you do with the picture is within the law as you 
understand it what follows becomes a risk management questions.  It is 
impossible protect yourself against all possible outcomes.  One can only 
estimate the probabilities for each step along the way, and multiply 
them. If they are really intent on pursuing this there should be other 
opportunities to withdraw before things get out of hand.
> (Although nothing
> has been done yet... I just used the general "Commons permission" OTRS
> e-mail address.  Is there a separate one I should have used for legal
> issues?)
AFAIK, The permissions queue is only one general one.with subsections 
for different areas.  I don't know that there is a completely separate 
one for Commons. 

Ec