[WikiEN-l] Possible legal violation in the use of a government seal?

[Ray Saintonge]

Benjamin Esham wrote:
> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>   
>> Benjamin Esham wrote:
>>     
>>> The seal is codified in law, which is necessarily public domain.
>>> Suppose I were to work from the law's definition of the seal and create
>>> an SVG file; would that be considered public domain, since I only
>>> created a graphic from a PD textual description?  Even then, the
>>> question remains of what I am allowed to do with the image I created.
>>>       
>> I can't see what you are trying to accomplish with this game. If it's your
>> original photograph you can do what you want with it.
>>     
> I was just wondering about the copyright of that particular rendering of the
> seal—it's a carved wooden disk—versus the copyright of J. Random User's
> rendering of the seal.  ISTM that the latter use would not be in violation
> of any copyrights, but might still be caught by the clause disallowing use
> of the seal by unauthorized persons.
>   
Now that I've actually seen your picture I wonder whether it is 
copyrightable.  It is essentially a predictable straight-on two 
dimensional representation of another two dimensional object.  It may 
lack the creative element needed for a copyright picture. Some might 
still try to argue that because the original is carved into the wood it 
is not two-dimensional.
>>> Does Wikipedia have any established guidelines on the legality of the
>>> use of coats of arms and seals?
>>>       
>> Including a picture of a seal is not a use for trademark purposes.
>>     
> I'm afraid I don't know what you're saying here.  Are you just being
> pedantic about my choice of the word "use"?  The County government certainly
> seemed to think that we were "using" their seal to some extent that is in
> violation of the relevant law.  It's not like we're trying to pose as a
> county website; we're just including the image for illustrative purposes.
>   
If it ever came to a court argument over this the meaning of "use" would 
probably be a key issue.  Given the nature of Wikipedia work it is 
perfectly understandable that we would view "use" in terms of copyright 
law.  The terms "free use" and "fair use" are so commonplace for us.  
Even if we misunderstand those terms it is still from the perspective of 
copyright law.

The distinction may seem pedantic, but I would be inclined to look 
further into the law that you quoted to see if there is another section 
defining the term "use".  We do not normally use something by merely 
showing what it looks like.  Using a seal would most likely arise when 
it suggests some kind of authority to represent the County.
>> I tried the link that you gave to your picture, but it does not give me
>> the picture.
>>     
> Hmm... try http://tinyurl.com/252t2e.  The link was probably broken due to
> line wrapping somewhere.
>   
>> This leaves me the impression that the complaint is much ado about
>> nothing.
>>     
My fault on this.  There had been talk of taking down the image, and I 
too quickly jumped to the conclusion that that happened.  It turned out 
that it had more to do with my own browser settings.
> Which complaint are you referring to, their complaint about our inclusion of
> the image?  I hope it is nothing, but I'm not looking forward to trying to
> explain to them that our fair use rights trump their law ;-)
>   
That facetious comment on my part was somewhat based on my erroneous 
belief that the image was no longer available.  In this case I think 
that our proper fair use WOULD trump their law, but it's always easier 
to avoid having to make that defence. This is why in legal circumstances 
it can be better to know the answer before you ask the question.  What 
you are really trying to do when you ask the question is to get them to 
confirm what you already know. 
> I have forwarded the attorney's letter to the Commons OTRS people; they will
> be able to remove the image from Commons while we try to determine our legal
> rights and abilities in this matter.
I really don't see any need to take it down.