[WikiEN-l] Moving forward

[Armed Blowfish]

On 02/08/07, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/2/07, Armed Blowfish <diodontida.armata at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On 02/08/07, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It's perfectly compatible to hold the opinions "I support SV" and "Why
> > > the **** did you all blow the list up this morning with atrociously
> > > inappropriate rape comparisons".
> >
> > Comparing this to my life is a form of empathy... in any case, I
> > believe I answered your question here:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-August/078543.html
> >
> > In any case, the psychology of rape is the psychology of abuse, for
> > the most part.
>
> Not exactly.  You're making an argument for symmetry, in which
> comparisons of generalized abuse with rape are reasonable.  In fact,
> though there are similar attitudes and pathologies involved, the vast
> majority of more generalized abusive people are not rapists and do not
> operate in a like manner.  It's not just a matter of further
> generalized extreme; there are also sexual power aspects to most rapes
> which are simply not present in generalized abuse situations.

I believe I've said more about 'the second rape' phenomena, which is
different from rape (see original links), than about rape itself.  In
any case, in my experience, the psychological parallels are similar.
Psychological effects... pain, fear, vulnerability... later on
isolation and more fear.  And I do believe I've been discussing effect
far more than intention.  While I cannot comprehend rape itself being
well-intentioned... the best that might be said is that the rapist was
totally insane at the time... many (most?  almost all?)  of the people
who ultimately support the rapist don't know what they are doing -
actually believe the rapist is not a rapist, but a good person.

In response to 'sexual power': there are some who say that rape isn't
sex, it's violence.

And yes... I am saying the psychological effects are remarkably parallel.

> And psychology studies of internet human interaction indicate that
> most online abusers are NOT abusive in real life, and never will be.
> Many of them are reveling in the ability to stir up trouble online
> with no retaliation, and are in real life relatively meek and
> powerless.  They find the depersonalizing aspects of internet
> communications offer them an outlet to let loose anger and repression
> that they haven't got the psyche to reveal in person.

But if enough information to track someone down is made public, it
doesn't have to be the same person.

> I understand the stalking thing.  I've had someone arrested for
> bothering me and my wife in real life and online.

I'm sorry to hear that, but glad that it sounds like it turned out
okay in the end.

> I also understand the rape thing; two of my ex-girlfriends and several
> of my other female friends are rape survivors.  One hid a highly
> abusive relationship from me and other friends for over a year out of
> shame and guilt, staying in it because she was too afraid to leave or
> ask for help.

I'm sorry.  ;_;

> Internet-only harrassment and "outing" are different.
>
> They aren't minor things.  They certainly can be life-changing events,
> and traumatic to the victims.  Wikipedia should take them seriously
> and take actions to prevent people from doing it to our participants.
>
> But they're not the same.

: )

> I believe in good faith that you believe that there's a legitimate
> analogy.  But you're deeply and disturbingly wrong about that.  I
> respect that you believe that you say, but it's an opinion which is
> arguably incorrect, and clearly and overwhelmingly divisive.  The harm
> brought to this community by strenuously arguing the analogy is not
> minor.
>
> I do not see allowing the situation to settle down with things as they
> stand now to be a good end result to today's discussions.  We cannot
> be having divisive issues lying around like that like unexploded
> bombs, waiting to blow up the community again.  This was a terrible
> terrible day for the mailing list, and it can't happen again.  Until
> you understand your role in that and self-moderate your participation
> here, we have a problem.
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert at gmail.com
>

Look, if there's anything I regret, it's that many people have
apparently not understood, for some reason, the distinctions I have
made between effect and intent, which I spelt out in my first posting
here, and explained in more detail in several later posts.  Perhaps
they didn't read what I wrote on that topic.  I don't know.  But in
case someone is reading now who didn't read any of that before - I
don't believe the majority of people who end up defending rapists even
know the person is a rapist, much less mean any harm - nor do I
believe there is anyone on this list who actually means to cause any
harm.  Still, the psychological effects on victims is very damaging.

Armed Blowfish