[WikiEN-l] Moving forward

[Marc Riddell]

> On 8/2/07, Armed Blowfish <diodontida.armata at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 02/08/07, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It's perfectly compatible to hold the opinions "I support SV" and "Why
>>> the **** did you all blow the list up this morning with atrociously
>>> inappropriate rape comparisons".
>> 
>> Comparing this to my life is a form of empathy... in any case, I
>> believe I answered your question here:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-August/078543.html
>> 
>> In any case, the psychology of rape is the psychology of abuse, for
>> the most part.

on 8/2/07 10:27 PM, George Herbert at george.herbert at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Not exactly.  You're making an argument for symmetry, in which
> comparisons of generalized abuse with rape are reasonable.  In fact,
> though there are similar attitudes and pathologies involved, the vast
> majority of more generalized abusive people are not rapists and do not
> operate in a like manner.  It's not just a matter of further
> generalized extreme; there are also sexual power aspects to most rapes
> which are simply not present in generalized abuse situations.
> 
> And psychology studies of internet human interaction indicate that
> most online abusers are NOT abusive in real life, and never will be.
> Many of them are reveling in the ability to stir up trouble online
> with no retaliation, and are in real life relatively meek and
> powerless.  They find the depersonalizing aspects of internet
> communications offer them an outlet to let loose anger and repression
> that they haven't got the psyche to reveal in person.
> 
> I understand the stalking thing.  I've had someone arrested for
> bothering me and my wife in real life and online.
> 
> I also understand the rape thing; two of my ex-girlfriends and several
> of my other female friends are rape survivors.  One hid a highly
> abusive relationship from me and other friends for over a year out of
> shame and guilt, staying in it because she was too afraid to leave or
> ask for help.
> 
> Internet-only harrassment and "outing" are different.
> 
> They aren't minor things.  They certainly can be life-changing events,
> and traumatic to the victims.  Wikipedia should take them seriously
> and take actions to prevent people from doing it to our participants.
> 
> But they're not the same.
> 
> I believe in good faith that you believe that there's a legitimate
> analogy.  But you're deeply and disturbingly wrong about that.  I
> respect that you believe that you say, but it's an opinion which is
> arguably incorrect, and clearly and overwhelmingly divisive.  The harm
> brought to this community by strenuously arguing the analogy is not
> minor.
> 
> I do not see allowing the situation to settle down with things as they
> stand now to be a good end result to today's discussions.  We cannot
> be having divisive issues lying around like that like unexploded
> bombs, waiting to blow up the community again.  This was a terrible
> terrible day for the mailing list, and it can't happen again.  Until
> you understand your role in that and self-moderate your participation
> here, we have a problem.

Some excellent insights here, George. And, yes, this thread (and others like
it recently) is symptomatic of some real problems at the heart of this
Project. We ignore them at our own peril!

And, it is time for those who eagerly identify themselves in the media as
being prominent figures in Wikipedia to begin taking an active role in its
health.

Marc Riddell