[WikiEN-l] Ha Ha Ha you are so funny Jimbo!! # 3
Thommandel at aol.com
Thommandel at aol.com
Sun May 7 03:48:08 UTC 2006
In a message dated 5/6/2006 2:08:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
wikipedia at philwelch.net writes:
I don't know anything about cosmology. I do know something about
bias--since you are biased towards plasma cosmology, perhaps
neutrality is perceived by you as a negative bias? I know that
Wikipedia tends to avoid giving undue weight to non-standard theories.
Your reply is reasonable and adult like. Thanks for that. However you
seemed to have selected parts of my letter and ignored the important (to me)
parts. Rather than further confuse the issue, allow me to take it one point at a
time.
My main concern is Hubble's regard for redshift. Cosmological redshift is
one of the three legs that the big bang theory is based on. The standard
theory has it that this observed redshift is Doppler induced, i.e., the faster a
star is receding, the more it's light is shifted toward the red. They know the
light has been shifted because certain spectral lines, frequencies which
absorb energy, are found to have been shifted. Thus they can tell the red light
was actually a different frequency (color) when it started out.
In your article about Hubble, it is written and I quote "Edwin Powell Hubble
(_November 20_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_20) , _1889_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889) –_September 28_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_28) , _1953_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953) ) was an _American_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) _astronomer_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomer) , noted for his discovery of _galaxies_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy) beyond the _Milky Way_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way) and the cosmological _redshift_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift) . Edwin Hubble was one of the first to argue that the red shift of distant
galaxies is due to the _Doppler effect_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect) induced by the expansion of the universe. He was one of the leading
astronomers of modern times and laid down the foundation upon which _physical
cosmology_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology) now rests."
The controversy revolves around the "cause" of this redshift. Remember that
while the redshift has in fact been observed, the "cause" for the redshift
is theoretical. (It was achieved by adding "c" the velocity of light to the
original equations) The big bang theory ASSUMES the redshift is Doppler
induced and THEREFORE indicates velocity much like the train whistle changing in
tone as it passes by you.
They key phrase here is "Edwin Hubble was one of the first to argue that the
red shift of distant galaxies is due to the _Doppler effect_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect) induced by the expansion of the universe."
This is simply not true. In the Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society
of Canada, in a paper on the Centennial Celebration of Hubble's birth, A.
Sandage writes that Hubble himself did not consider redshift as an indicator of
expansion, Sandage wrote: "Hubble concluded that his observed log N(m)
distribution showed a large departure from Euclidean geometry, provided that the
effect of redshifts on the apparent magnitudes was calculated as if the
redshifts were due to a real expansion. A different correction is required if no
motion exists, the redshifts then being due to an unknown cause. Hubble
believed that his count data gave a more reasonable result concerning spatial
curvature if the redshift correction was made assuming no recession. To the very
end of his writings he maintained this position, favoring (or at the very
least keeping open) the model where no true expansion exists, and therefore that
the redshift "represents a hitherto unrecognized principle of nature". This
viewpoint is emphasized (a) in The Realm of the Nebulae, (b) in his reply
(Hubble 1937a) to the criticisms of the 1936 papers by Eddington and by
McVittie, and (c) in his 1937 Rhodes Lectures published as The Observational
Approach to Cosmology (Hubble 1937b). It also persists in his last published
scientific paper which is an account of his Darwin Lecture (Hubble 1953). "
<ref>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/diamond_jubilee/1996/sandage_hubble.html</ref>
Also in
Hubble’s 1937 book (The Observational Approach To Cosmology)-- "Hubble
himself made it clear that he was very uncomfortable with the ‘recession factor’
being attributed to him as ‘The Hubble Expansion’." If one just sticks to
the facts, Hubble concluded, "There is no evidence of expansion and no
restriction of the time scale, no trace of spatial curvature..."
Therefore it is clear that Hubble DID NOT argue that redshift meant
expansion. The truth is that Hubble argued just the opposite, that the redshift was
caused by an unknown (at that time) mechanism. And Wikipedia is incorrect
stating otherwise.
It was the later cosmologists that argued that redshift meant expansion, not
Hubble. Your encyclopedia states in the Hubble section "Hubble's law is the
statement in _physical cosmology_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology) that the _redshift_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift) in light
coming from distant _galaxies_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy) is
_proportional_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)) to
their distance. The law was first formulated by _Edwin Hubble_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble) and _Milton Humason_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Humason) in _1929_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929) after
nearly a decade of _observations_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observations) .
It is considered the first observational basis for the expanding space
paradigm and today serves as one of the most often cited pieces of evidence in
support of the _Big Bang_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) ."
(In the above statement which sounds true, the incorrect part is "...the firs
t observational basis... It was assumed, not observed.)
There is a modern twist in the story line. In the 197o's William Tifft
observed that the light coming from distant stars and galaxies is "quantized." It
has periodicity.
This observation has been verified and confirmed many times over. It is
considered inconsistent with expansion since expansion would blur out the
spectral lines. (An alternative explanation favored by creationists often cited by
some is that the earth is at the center of the Universe...)
Now, If I were to go to your articles which make the statement that Hubble
proved expansion, the inclusion of this comment by Hubble as reported by
Sandage would not be accepted. It was reverted out of the redshift article, with
no explanation, reverted out of the alternative cosmology article with the
explanation that it is already in the plasma cosmology article, and was reverted
out of the plasma cosmology article with the explanation that it is of
historical interest only.
So, Hubble did not believe that redshift meant expansion, but as the story
filters down it becomes just the opposite, in some places (elsewhere)I have
read something like "Hubble proved that the Universe is expanding."
The controversy does not exist only in Wikipedia. While it is favorite
characterization by the big bang folks to regard alternative cosmological
theories as "fringe theories" there are many notable figures who have disagreed with
the big bang conjecture. One is Halton Arp, who was forced to move to
Germany to continue his studies. His works shows that spatially correlated
galaxies have vastly different redshifts
My complaint is that the plasma cosmology article is populated by big bang
advocates with their obvious to me bias toward their theory, a bias which they
frequently acknowledge. It doesn't seem right to me that one advocating a
certain viewpoint can edit the opposing viewpoint in a disparaging manner. And
when it comes to deleting evidence that runs contrary to their belief, then
we have a new area of concern. Something akin to a janitor rewriting the
equations on the blackboard at night.
Point two. I did not start this warring. I started out in good faith with
good intentions. But I was insulted, threatened, intimidated, reverted,
blanked, ridiculed and called just about every name in the book. (I don't
understand why some think calling names is effective, it only speaks about the name
caller) I am used to dealing with professionals and professionals do not talk
in the manner I have come to know here. It almost seems like the people, some
of them anyhow, are college kids with nothing better to do inbetween classes.
Professionals do not resort to ad hominum attacks for any reason. That is
because an attack on the person only indicates that attacker has no better
argument going for him. It is an admission of failure. I am not going to simply
lie down and take it for the sake of civility because I have seen very
little of that here. I will suggest that your organization consider creating a
Wikipolice with the sole purpose of infiltrating articles in order to ferret
out those admins who are effectively rotting away what was originally probably
one of the best ideas anyone ever thought of. It is very dangerous to assume
that everyone is doing the right thing, especially when the operating
philosophy is something like the first comment I heard from this list "A good
Wikipedian can do as he damn well pleases"
Tommy Mandel
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatsoever
that it is not utterly absurd. " – Bertrand Russell
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