[WikiEN-l] Category:Soviet spies

[Fastfission]

I'm happy with having some sort of sub-category for people for whom
there is no doubt about their espionage but were never convicted --
such as Theodore Hall. However the blanket category is certainly not
that.

I think even the "Alleged" would be too strong in some cases. A former
Soviet spy chief published a tell-all a few years back claiming to
have recruited Robert Oppenheimer and Enrico Fermi as spies, something
for which no evidence has ever been found (and not without both an
army of historians and the FBI looking!). Nobody takes the claim very
seriously, though it is an "allegation" and not from a non-notable
source.

The problem with just saying "little doubt" is *whose* doubt? One can
produce an army of quacks to support any POV, of course, but that's
not NPOV.

The word "academic" is a bit stodgy, admittedly, but in general what
is meant is something like "respectable, established expert community"
-- which usually means academic historians in this specific situation.
If you can come up with a better way to state it, by all means...

FF

On 11/8/05, Keith Old <keithold at gmail.com> wrote:
> We should have a similar categorisation in place for Soviet spies removing
> the word academic. For example, Kim Philby was not convicted of being a
> Soviet spy but there is little doubt that he was a spy. He even held a job
> with the KGB after his defection.
>  There have been accusations against other people such as Sir Roger Hollis,
> former head of MI5, but these claims have yet to be proven one way or
> another. If we wanted to put these people into a category, it should be
> alleged spies.
>  Regards
>   *Keith Old*
>
>  On 11/9/05, Fastfission <fastfission at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > No, but we do have [[Category:Rapists]]. However the description page
> > for the category says that "This category is for individuals who have
> > been convicted of rape, or those for whom there is little academic
> > doubt as to whether they committed the crime."
> >
> > If we limited [[Category:Soviet spies]] to people who had been
> > convicted or for cases where there is little academic doubt, it would
> > be a pretty small list. That's part of the reason that the people
> > opposed to renaming the category are opposed to it -- it de-emphasizes
> > the point they want to make (see my last posting) if the category is
> > small.
> >
> > You couldn't classify Ethel Rosenberg as a "Soviet spy" in this
> > definition -- there is considerable academic doubt whether she
> > participated in espionage. There is no doubt that she was convicted
> > for it*, though -- it is a plain fact.
> >
> > FF
> >
> > *Well, technically for "conspiracy to commit espionage", but now we're
> > splitting hairs.
> >
> >
> > On 11/8/05, Alphax <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > >
> > > Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > > > Chip Berlet wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I put "Category:Soviet spies" on Categories for Deletion, but even
> > > >> though most of the people thought a name change was a good idea,
> > since
> > > >> most of them did not vote to Delete, the ruling was to Keep. I
> > > >> objected, but got no response.
> > > >>
> > > > It seems strange to me that any category which could be defamatory
> > would
> > > > be subject to the whims of the voting process. This is not just a
> > > > question of "Soviet spies". Any category suggesting a criminal
> > activity
> > > > of any kind should be viewed as POV.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Do we have "Category:Convicted rapists"?
> > >
> > > - --
> > > Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> > > Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> > > "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32)
> > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> > >
> > > iQEVAwUBQ3FWZLMAAH8MeUlWAQhFhQf8Dr5LJofeISHVucMnh40NUq7J3G1nKBU+
> > > w9KGWgWop+UaoS8hiLbBjsiFHtK73KHiXsHrhmzOaaAv9gK7NeEElIPcVwGVorpa
> > > P8mZ3jxCUamRQdHXYoNaJNmiUSOccjGqa9Q0h6YXASASvphKqZNL4pvQ2m0mIeoh
> > > ig6ACKzdvO/G0TQpA8clHhymZOpLP0gPni1my0oksW8d1YqQB7FTriLovW30eMUP
> > > Q27/1QQe/ErV2WeDfHDg3S0xVDsJWyh6KavVj/qWTqT+1M6LTRXE4Ewr14VSkFn9
> > > e32u9J9I8VvR+chxsv6sI9Jdku2LtYTJ5wIbOz+AnBPqzK2slbNmIw==
> > > =916B
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>