[WikiEN-l] Non-free images, there has to be a better way

[Gregory Maxwell]

On 7/4/05, Haukur Þorgeirsson <haukurth at hi.is> wrote:
> Certainly. Nor will the world of our downstream users
> if they can't use every single image Wikipedia itself
> can. They can't do that anyway because fair use only
> applies in the U.S.

The goal of the project is not to produce an encyclopedia with content
that is free for some people for some uses.

It is our intention to provide an encyclopedia of completely free
content which is free in perpetuity without descrimination of field of
endeavor.

> I'm sorry - this was a typo for [[IBM 1360]] which
> is the machine in question if you're following the
> thread. It's nice that we have free pictures of the
> IBM 360. And it's nice that you have had lots of
> stuff in your garage at various times.

My point was just because some piece of equipment is exotic, big, or
expensive that doesn't mean that there are not people with the ability
to photograph them.
 
> > and the Z machine is a
> > perfect example of something where we can probably get a grant under
> > CC-BY or GFDL. 
> Have you followed the discussion on the permission
> for the Z-machine picture? By all means, go ahead
> and ask them to release it under CC-BY.

Sorry, I've been busy with other images.
The responsiblity to get permission ultimately rests on those who wish
the content to be included.
 
> In my opinion there's nothing wrong with Wikipedia
> using that image even if non-encyclopec down-stream
> users can't. I'm sure they would allow a Wikibook
> too if you ask them. If you can get them to release
> it under CC-BY that would of course be great. And
> if you can get a PD image of a z-machine which is
> as good as this one I salute you.

Well, the policy of Wikipedia disagrees with you, and has for a fairly
long time.
> No-one in this thread has suggested we break the law.

Fair enough. Pardon my tunnel vision, because the vast majority of
images being canned right now are not cases where we have been given
permission and in those cases people are suggesting we break the law.
 
> > Actually, it's a pain in the butt to remove the images because of the
> > way we store the tagging.. once you mix in the inconsistency of the
> > tagging it becomes impossible.
> 
> It's a straightforward technical problem.
> It's not "impossible", it's not even really
> that difficult.

As I said, if the images are not tagged it is impossible short of
having someone read all of the image texts and removing a lot of
images that are free but left untagged.

> And it's good that we're removing those. I'm only
> concerned with used-with-permission images here.

A fair concern, I'm sorry for mixing other aspects of the unfree image
issue into it.

> >> And I can sympathise with people who don't give a
> >> rat's toenail for the current downstream users,
> >> much as I believe in the GFDL.
> >
> > Sympathize as much as you like. Preserving freedom downstream is a
> > goal of the project.
> 
> Yes. One that I am aware of and agree with.
> 
> 
> > Downstrem users doesn't just refer to random
> > useless mirror on the internet, but also refers to people publishing
> > printed works, and to other sister projects like wikibooks.
> 
> Yes. Unfortunately most downstream use up to this
> point has been useless mirroring.

Downstream work which is visable to you, there is a lot of substanital
downstream work which isn't useless and in any case we are not
providing freedom if we exclude even the stupid mirrors.
 
> > I'm am strongly against abuse of fair use.  I haven't noticed WP:PUI
> > accepting images as fair use which shouldn't be... can you cite some
> > examples?
> 
> No. But your comment above indicates that you are aware of
> the tendency of people to claim fair use when they're told
> that they can't use an image - including a used-with-permission
> image.

Right... I am well aware. But isn't a reason to change our
enforcement... if it's right to remove an image, it's right to remove
it no matter what lame excuses people will use to defend it.

With permission isn't a lame excuse, it's a good one.. but it's still
not one we can always accept.