[WikiEN-l] New Haven eateries, again

[Daniel P.B.Smith]

> From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at bomis.com>

> I think that's right.  It's best, whenever possible, to think
> creatively about what sort of olive branch might be offered to the
> other person.  In this particular case, the joyful compromise seems to
> have been to leave in "Louis' Lunch" which is undeniably of
> encyclopedia importance, and to remove the others.

I think the story is a bit more complicated. I'm just going to mention 
some salient facts. I believe there was quite a bit of less-than-ideal 
communication going on. I contributed to some of it, which I regret and 
for which I apologize.

The original language, by an anon, was:

"New Haven has 2 claims of the worlds first. 1 being the Pizza and 2 
being the Hamburger. For pizza there are 2 choices Sally's Pizza and 
Pepe's Pizza. MBoth reside on Wooster St. And beleive you me, Its the 
BEST pizza in the world. For burgers, there's Louis' Lunch, using old 
fashiond vertical burners Louis willmake you a damn goor burger." [sic]

This was arguably POV (if "beleive you me" isn't POV I don't know what 
is), and certainly needed editing. In my own view, its removal was 
understandable, though possibly an over-reaction.

It was then reinserted by a non-anon in an improved form:

"New Haven is home of many homey eateries, including Louis' Lunch, a 
restaurant that claims to have originated the hamburger: its vertical 
burners, freshly-ground beef, and burgers on toast has long but orderly 
queues ten deep at lunchtime. New Haven also boasts several pizza 
places of distinction, notably Sally's Pizza and Pepe's Pizza, both on 
Wooster St., and Frank's Pizza, offering chicken pizza and clam pizza. 
Other spots catering to the college population include the Yankee 
Doodle Coffee Shop."

There were then some cycles of removal and reinsertion. Somewhere along 
the way the incorrect name (Sally's Pizza) was corrected to "Sally's 
Apizza."

What I wish to note is that on the one hand, a) the removers, including 
myself, didn't do much independent research to see whether the 
establishments really had any claim to being notable. On the other 
hand, b) the re-inserters didn't do much to explain _why_ the 
establishments were notable. Some of the re-inserters simply appealed 
to _their own_ authority.

Another thing that got lost in the shuffle is that even if the 
reinserters were correct, simply naming an establishment carries very 
little value to a reader who doesn't already know the establishment.

Since then, a number of points have come out. In addition to Louis' 
Lunch claim to notability, Sally's Apizza was apparently a favorite 
hangout of Garry Trudeau during his Yale years. Frank Sinatra also 
patronized it. One of the reinserters has since noted that the Phantom 
Gourmet website gave Sally's Apizza some kind of best-pizza (in the US) 
award in 2001; the same website says "New Haven’s Wooster Street is to 
pizza what Newcastle is to coal and Maine is to lobster. The two great 
rivals are Frank Pepe’s and Sally’s Apizza." The site rated Pepe's as 
having the best white-clam pizza.

Also, a claim mentioned by the original inserter that has gotten lost 
in the various edits is that Pepe's Pizza claims to have introduced 
pizza into the U.S. in 1925. (Or possibly, invented the "white pizza," 
I'm not quite sure which).

I'm not quite sure what counts as "notable enough" for inclusion, but 
these all sound like legitimate local landmarks. I realize that every 
town has restaurants with autographed pictures in them, but noting that 
"thus-and-such famous person ate there" and "it won thus-and-such 
national award" would, IMHO, go a long way to validating the inclusion 
of a place.