[WikiEN-l] Ray's anti-Semitic violent attacks on the Jews for not forgivi...

[daniwo59 at aol.com]

In a message dated 7/3/2004 9:26:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rkscience100 at yahoo.com writes:
Ray's attacks on the Jews for not forgiving Nazis is not
only off-topic, but outrageously hateful. 
Personally, I feel that your response is even more hateful, Robert. Ray 
commented on an obervation he makes--whether it is right or wrong is another story, 
as is whether the question of anyone can actually give it any absolute moral 
score. 

It is certainly not hateful. Many Jews including survivors--especially 
survivors--debate among themselves whether they are able to forgive the Nazis for 
what they did. In his book "The Wallflower," Simon Wiesenthal tells the story of 
a sickly SS man who was dying in a concentration camp, and who extended his 
hand to the orderly, Wiesenthal, asking for forgiveness with his dying breath. 
Wiesenthal refused to give it, but, he writes, the problem plagued him for the 
rest of his life. In fact, that is the theme of the book, which includes 
essays on that very topic by leading Jewish and non-Jewish intellectuals. 
Apparently, Robert, even a Nazi-hunter like Wiesenthal was plagued by the question of 
forgiveness, one that you so brusequely dismiss. 

This September, the museum where I work is hosting a conference called 
"Forgiveness After the Holocaust," which I am helping to organize. At this event, 
leading scholars and prominent survivors will share diverse views on the 
subject. I actually formulated the four questions that serve as the theme. I dont 
remember them all off hand, but they were something to the effect of Can there be 
forgiveness? Who can forgive? etc. I would hardly call such a discussion 
"outrageously hateful." We are discussing it. Does Ray not have a right to voice 
his opinion on it?

While going through some material, I found a proclamation, issued by a woman 
who was a victim of Mengele's experiments in Auschwitz. The proclamation was 
made in Auschwitz, as she stood beside one of the Nazi doctors who performed 
brutal experiments on Jews and others. In the proclamation, she called for 
forgiveness, sixty years later. Apparently, a film was made about this too. 
Personally, I have ambiguous feelings about her statement, but that does not detract 
from the fact that she, a survivor made it. Is that "outrageously hateful"? 
Does the fact that the statement appears in the state-mandated Holocaust 
curriculum of New Jersey make that curriculum hateful? Does it make New Jersey 
hateful?

You ended your post to Ray saying "If so, then you are a sick man who needs 
mental help, immediately. If not, then you have an anti-Semitic double 
standard." Is the measure of needing mental help (or alternately, being anti-Semitic) 
whether that person stands in opposition to you? Is there only one way to view 
complex issues and dilemmas? That in itself is a fascistic statement: there 
is only one truth, one legitimate perspective, and we must quash everything 
that challenges it.

Then you continue: "I am disgusted at this pro-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic 
vitriol. I am just wondering if anyone here will have the guts to oppose this 
violent hatespeech." I have the guts to oppose this violent hatespeech. Sadly, 
however, I see you as being guilty of it.

Danny

PS. Despite your subject line, I am hardpressed to find anything particularly 
"violent" in Ray's comment. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/attachments/20040703/a764c3b5/attachment.htm