[WikiEN-l] Classification of China?

Sat Apr 26 01:56:20 UTC 2003

I don't think so, not a lot of elections held in the Catholic Church, and
while there is a lot of discussion, a priest or bishop who deviates on
certain points is soon in serious trouble. Whatever the defects of the
United States the situation differs markedly. Bottom line, words have
established meanings to most of us. Everything isn't the same, some
institutions are relatively democratic, some are relatively authorititarian
and may fairly be so described. No need to throw your mind out of gear.

Fred

> From: Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com>
> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:09:26 -0700
> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
> 
> You'll have to do better than that! - your description applies equally
> well to the United States government, and to both the Green Party
> and Libertarian Party.  And therein lies the problem with attempts
> to say a government is or is not authoritarian, communist, or
> whatever - those kinds of terms are editorial assessments of a
> pattern of objectively observed behavior.  Even if 99% of people
> believe the assessment, the only truly NPOV thing you can say is
> "99% of observers believe the government to be authoritarian".
> 
> Stan
> 
> Fred Bauder wrote:
> 
>> No, the Roman Catholic church is authoritarian in different ways, for
>> example, one person, the Pope, has the power to issue edits binding upon all
>> catholics. There is a hierarchal structure, an official canon, and
>> discipline applied to those within the hierachy who deviate from the canon.
>> All goes to show that if you change the subject, you change the question and
>> the answer.
>> 
>> Fred
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
>>> Organization: Boskonia
>>> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:06:19 -0700
>>> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>>> 
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>>> And the Catholic Church (for another example you used of an present-day
>>> authoritarian organization) does any of these things?  I can (I have)
>>> written letters extremely critical of Cardinal Mahoney that were
>>> published -- without interference -- in the free press.  Should I fear
>>> the Spanish Inquisition?
>>> 
>>> Methinks your definition of "authoritarian organization" is remarkably
>>> broad if it lumps the Catholic Church in with the Butchers of Beijing.
>>> 
>>> It makes me wonder how fluid your definition of "truth" is.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Fred Bauder wrote:
>>> | The criteria are control of the press, repression of political speech,
>>> | imprisonment of those who atempt to organize an opposing political
>>> party or
>>> | a union, etc.
>>> |
>>> | Fred
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |>From: Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org>
>>> |>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> |>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:31:58 -0400
>>> |>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> |>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>>> |>
>>> |>At 05:16 PM 4/25/03 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote:
>>> |>
>>> |>>I intend to speak truth. China (and the Catholic church, for another
>>> |>>example) are authoritarian. \ It is not merely a matter of the opinion of
>>> |>>vague critics. There are objective criteria which if met constitute an
>>> |>>authoritarian government.
>>> |>
>>> |>This concerns me, not because I disagree, but because I don't know
>>> |>what objective criteria Fred is using, and because almost anyone who
>>> |>promotes a point of view sincerely believes that he or she is speaking
>>> |>truth.
>>> |>
>>> |>The determination to speak truth, while admirable, is not the same as
>>> |>NPOV, which is our policy.
>>> |>
>>> |>
>>> |>
>>> |>>Fred
>>> |>>
>>> |>>
>>> |>>>From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
>>> |>>>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> |>>>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>> |>>>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>>> |>>>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>>> |>>>
>>> |>>>You can't just say "China is an evil totalitarian
>>> |>>>country" (I know that's not what you said) or even
>>> |>>>"China is a controlling country" because that's an
>>> |>>>opinion, not a fact. The communist party in China
>>> |>>>might think "We're not controlling or authoritarian,
>>> |>>>we just want the best for our citizens", which makes
>>> |>>>the comment POV.  You could say (in a later
>>> |>>>paragraph), "China is critisized for being
>>> |>>>[[authoritarianism and
>>> |>>>totalitarianism|authoritarianist]].
>>> |>>>
>>> |>>>--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>>> |>>>
>>> |>>>
>>> |>>>>I stirred up this hornet's nest  by inserting a link
>>> |>>>>to [[authoritarianism
>>> |>>>>and totalitarianism|authoritarian]] into the first
>>> |>>>>paragraph of the article.
>>> |>>>>I think this is a fair characterization of the
>>> |>>>>regime (regardless of what
>>> |>>>>ever other adjective might describe it).
>>> |>
>>> |>--
>>> |>Vicki Rosenzweig
>>> |>vr at redbird.org
>>> |>http://www.redbird.org
>>> |>
>>> |>_______________________________________________
>>> |>WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> |>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>>> |>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>> |
>>> |
>>> | _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> - --
>>> ~ Sean Barrett     | John and Mary had never met. They were like
>>> ~ sean at epoptic.com | two hummingbirds who had also never met.
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