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<p><font face="Linux Biolinum O">It's really the first time ever I hear
about this rule. Sure making 3 digits group separated with thin
non breaking spaces is a good practice that you might use for
the vintage, although to my mind that's a practice whose readability
usefulness comes with larger number. That is 2017 is far more
common than 2 017, and you might even argue that habit might
make the former less disturbing.</font></p>
<p><font face="Linux Biolinum O">Now regarding spaces between words,
do anyone have an authoritative source on the subject and what
it says on this topic? For example there is the <a
href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexique_des_r%C3%A8gles_typographiques_en_usage_%C3%A0_l%27Imprimerie_nationale">Lexique
des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale</a>
but I have no access to it right now.</font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 24/01/2017 à 01:43, Saroj Dhakal a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAwzgAUFH9VntrdqELwUu9VcGWjnKA0-U7yMubUfKP04egSh4g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Please use the suggested format.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thanks,</div>
<div dir="auto">Saroj</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe
Verdy" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:verdy_p@wanadoo.fr">verdy_p@wanadoo.fr</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">Ok between a quantity number (provided it is
a short integer) and the following noun or unit
(unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units such
as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a
month or a month and a year, there's no such restriction
and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no
quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just
enumerated in order).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to
avoid breaking dates, but the same could also be said
about peole names (first name, last name) or toponyms:
this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents,
but actually this only applies if you can predeict the
paragraph width and the unbreakable part is narrow
compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented
when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces
can be expanded.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule
but a matter of preferences, and only applicable to
typesetted documents, when you know the fonts used,
their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text
justification made (or microjustifications, including
kerning and variable floatting) around complex
non-recangular shapes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking
spaces will be worse as it will force other columns to
become narrower or to have overlapping columns. long
dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot
of examples of printed books where long dates in
paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are
clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not
matter if the day number or year is spelled completely
or written with digits, or if there's a weekday name
prepended or time appended). Only dates in short format
(dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:poltron54@gmail.com" target="_blank">poltron54@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">According to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM"
target="_blank">w:fr:WP:TYPO</a>, we should use
non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_-5450892868517810914HOEnZb">
<div class="m_-5450892868517810914h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-01-23 19:36
GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:verdy_p@wanadoo.fr"
target="_blank">verdy_p@wanadoo.fr</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">There'a absolutely no need of
non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The
numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space
at all. The long format "dd monthname
yyyy" uses standard spaces for word
separation (they are breakable). And
there's NEVER any space in the middel of
the year.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However the French non-breaking
spaces are need for punctuations (before
"!", "?", ":" or in the middle of «
guillemets » (standard French quotation
marks) or in numbers as group
separators. These should ideally be
narrower than standard spaces (i.e.
NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0).
But none of these occur in French dates.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659HOEnZb">
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-01-23
19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:poltron54@gmail.com"
target="_blank">poltron54@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">According
to me, it’s a real
improvement.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">How
can we edit or suggest an edit
to the date format?<br>
Indeed, we used to use
non-breaking spaces in French
dates.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Pols12<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-01-23
8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf
guntz <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org"
target="_blank">psychoslave@culture-libre.org</a><wbr>></span>:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>Well, I don't have much
knowledge about calendar
living practices beyond
Greogorian calendar,
sorry if I misunderstood
your problem. Does that
also apply to day names,
or just month names?<br>
</p>
<p>Would you be kind
enough to give me some
concrete examples of
what you would like to
obtain and what are
possible side effect you
are concern about, with
some explanation and
latin transcription (if
possible)?</p>
<p>I still believe adding
other calendar support
might have some
interest. But maybe it
would be more relevant
to continue this aspect
of the discussion on the
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824" target="_blank">phabricator
ticket</a>.<br>
</p>
<div>
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659m_7821255346579296507m_5009463305934617826h5">
<br>
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659m_7821255346579296507m_5009463305934617826m_4845264401579045547moz-cite-prefix">Le
20/01/2017 à 13:40,
Haytham Abulela ALY
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default">Hi
Mathieu,</div>
<div
class="gmail_default">My
comment is not
related to
Assyrian or
Aramaic. The
issue is that
countries of the
Levant and
Mesopotamia have
applied the
names of the
Assyrian/Aramaic
calendar to the
Gregorian
calendar in
Arabic letters.
This has become
a norm for
decades. I think
that all that
needs to be done
in this regard
is to update the
list from which
the string of
code suggested
retrieves
values, and the
string of code
shall remain as
is without any
changes
necessary. My
concern here
would be that
this might
affect values in
cells of tables,
since the string
of text will
comprise of two
or three words.
If this matter
becomes a
nuisance, we may
ignore it as the
current state of
affairs is
suitable for the
majority of
Arabic speakers.
I was trying to
have an
inclusive
approach instead
of favouring one
format over
another.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default">Regards,</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
20 January 2017
at 02:25,
mathieu stumpf
guntz <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psychoslave@culture-libre.org"
target="_blank">psychoslave@culture-libre.org</a><wbr>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>Saluton
Haytham,<br>
</p>
<p>If you look
at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time"
target="_blank">the documentation</a>, non-Gregorian formating is
supported. Now
having a
deeper look at
it, it seems
that <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar" target="_blank">Assyrian
calendar</a>
is not yet in
the set of
supported
calendars, so
a phabricator
ticket should
be filled here
I think,
shouldn't it.
I don't know
what is the
the ISO 639-3
you would like
to use "<i>aii</i>"
(Assyrian
Neo-Aramaic)
or <i>"arc</i>"
(Aramaic
language), but
in both case <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro"
target="_blank">it seems that localization is missing</a> for already
provided month
names.<br>
</p>
So for the
sake of the
example, let's
say there was
a "xaF"
formatting
code which
would provide
an Assyrian
calendar full
month name,
then as far as
I understand,
you would like
to use:<br>
<blockquote>
<p><tt>{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii</tt><code></code><tt>}}
({{#time:F|$date1|aii</tt><code></code><tt>}})</tt></p>
</blockquote>
<p><tt>Thank
you Johan for
the feedback
request. We
have here and
there
complaints
when staff is
argued to not
take enough
into account
community
advises, so it
seems fair to
also emphasize
actions when
they are done
with a
community
feedback in
the loop.<br>
</tt></p>
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659m_7821255346579296507m_5009463305934617826m_4845264401579045547m_-8350684764110810710moz-cite-prefix">Le
19/01/2017 à
18:58, Haytham
Aly a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<p>Hi Johan,</p>
<p>This idea
is brilliant.</p>
<p>My own
concern for
Arabic is that
there are two
major ways for
displaying
Gregorian
month names;
transliteration
as well as the
Assyrian
names. Usually
transliterated
names suffice,
but I prefer
using both
divided by a
slash. This is
due to
differences in
official use,
since
transliterated
names are used
in Egypt,
Sudan, Libya,
Yemen, and
Gulf states;
while Assyrian
names are used
in Iraq,
Syria,
Lebanon,
Jordan and
Palestine.
Could this
automation
function
render both or
just the
common
transliterated
month names?
It would be a
bonus to have
both
displayed,
though only
transliterated
month names
would suffice.</p>
<p>Regards,<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659m_7821255346579296507m_5009463305934617826m_4845264401579045547m_-8350684764110810710moz-signature" cols="72">Haytham Abulela Aly
Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"
Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com</pre>
<div
class="m_-5450892868517810914m_-5028645651746786659m_7821255346579296507m_5009463305934617826m_4845264401579045547m_-8350684764110810710moz-cite-prefix">On
19/01/2017
8:31 AM, Johan
Jönsson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi
everyone,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>TL;DR:
Dates in items
that are in
the newsletter
every week
could be in a
format that
means you
could get a
100% in the
translation
memory and not
have to change
the days and
months every
week. Do you
want this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Longer
version:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Based on
Mathieu's
suggestion,
I've tested
adding dates
within
<tvar>
tags. This
makes it more
complicated
the first time
you translate,
but should
mean that you
can then use a
100% match
from the
translation
memory every
time and just
click on it
the same way
you do for any
other content
that stays
exactly the
same, instead
of manually
having to
change the
days and
months every
new week.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It looks
like this:<br>
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</<wbr>>|<tvar|format_language_code>{<wbr>{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
which means
that I get
this when I
translate:<br>
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|<wbr>$format_language_code}}.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For
Swedish, I can
just keep it
like that:
Where the
English
original said
"24 January"
the Swedish
translation
will say "24
januari". </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some
languages
write dates in
another
format. For
Mandarin
Chinese, the
first time I
do a
translation I
need to change
it to
{{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_la<wbr>nguage_code}}
(and the same
for $date2 and
$date3). I
imagine RTL
languages will
need to change
something too
the first time
they translate
this, for
example.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All
possible
options are
described
here:<br>
</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time"
target="_blank">https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki<wbr>/Help:Extension:ParserFunction<wbr>s#.23time</a> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pro: Less
burden for
returning
translators.
You translate
this once,
whether you
change the
date format or
not, then you
just click on
the
translation in
the
translation
memory next
week.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Con: More
complicated.
More difficult
for new
translators,
especially if
the standard
format doesn't
match the
norms of their
language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The
question: Do
you want this,
or did you
prefer it the
way it was?
This is all
about making
it as easy as
possible for
you, so you
decide.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page"
target="_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/i<wbr>ndex.php?title=Special:Transla<wbr>te&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F20<wbr>17%2F04&action=page</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04" target="_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik<wbr>i/Tech/News/2017/04</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>//Johan
Jönsson</div>
<div>--</div>
</div>
<br>
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Translators-l mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org">Translators-l@lists.wikimedia.org</a>
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