No subject
Fri Sep 2 16:33:14 UTC 2011
misunderstanding all through the article and I use the word "germs"
advisedly. In short, lots more work needed on this article!
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 16:24, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow.
>
> Just...wow.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari at wikimedia.org>wro=
te:
>
>> **
>> If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "datin=
g"
>> article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
>>
>> * Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
>>
>> * There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
>> messaging.
>>
>> * When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people
>> their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating
>> services.
>>
>> And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
>>
>> * During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and se=
x
>> for affluence and status".
>>
>> * Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the
>> United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise =
a
>> family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they=
're
>> too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
>>
>> It also includes lots of random advice like:
>>
>> * dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
>>
>> * men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women
>> should 'avoid sarcasm.'
>>
>> * Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and gaz=
e
>> intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to
>> emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or s=
it
>> hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
>>
>> I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
>>
>> And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting
>> "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword
>> carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors hav=
e
>> some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
>>
>> Ryan Kaldari
>>
>>
>> On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
>>
>> Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not
>> linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of
>> coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely
>> incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems,
>> aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universa=
l
>> that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I=
had
>> a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the
>> next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") bu=
t I
>> agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are
>> distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
>>
>> Gillian
>>
>> On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner <sgardner at wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons
>>> of academic research and popular history written about the history of
>>> dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even
>>> just within the United States.
>>>
>>> I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a
>>> really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/080183=
9351
>>> .
>>> Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara
>>> Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about
>>> the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sue
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> =EF=BB=BFSue Gardner
>>> Executive Director
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>> 415 839 6885 office
>>> 415 816 9967 cell
>>>
>>> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
>>> the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
>>>
>>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case
>>> <dancase at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Nathan
>>> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM
>>> > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>>> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
>>> >
>>> > I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with=
.
>>> > If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,
>>> > the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_da=
ting
>>> >
>>> > Daniel Case
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Gendergap mailing list
>>> > Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing listGendergap at lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimed=
ia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia <http://www.glamwiki.org>
> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Art<http://en.wikipedia.org=
/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> and
> Sarah Stierch Consulting
> *Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
> ------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.sarahstierch.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
--f46d0445187b422c5604b01a51c7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had looked at this article and yes, it contains the sort of muddled stuff=
which sends me bonkers! Bad history and bad sociology mixed up with random=
advice and juvenile opinion. Errrrk. Makes you want to give up, although t=
o be fair, it is a difficult topic to write on and would need considerable =
effort to make useful. I suppose, like many articles, it can best be consid=
ered a starting point. <br>
<br> The fact that the article is poorly written (and dubiously, if copious=
ly footnoted) does not mean that many of those points Kaldari lists are unt=
rue. In creating and criticising articles, we need to distinguish what we w=
ould LIKE to happen from what DOES happen. That applies to=C2=A0 the encycl=
opedia in general as much as to topics concerning this list in particular. =
For example, women DO indeed struggle with the "double shift" of =
having a career and having a family. Women DID connive to trade beauty and =
sex for affluence and status (what else could they do?) and there are many =
examples of how significant this is historically, some of which should be u=
sed to explain the claim.=C2=A0 More significant, though, is that women STI=
LL do it, so it is pretty well undeniable and much as we would wish otherwi=
se, unexceptionable. I am not sure if it is worse than men using attractive=
females to further their status - a practice barely reduced over the mille=
nnia and still common, indeed lauded, today.<br>
<br>Although the sections giving advice are ridiculous, even more annoying =
to me is the lack of understanding of the <i>Rape of the Sabine Women </i>a=
s a subject for art. The most famous is Nicolas Poussin's 1636-7 Baroqu=
e version in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY. The 1870 version used unhe=
lpfully and erroneously in the article is a pale 19th century piece of hist=
oricism. More important is that the word "rape" "...is a con=
ventional translation of Latin <i>raptio</i>, which in this context means &=
quot;abduction" rather than its prevalent modern meaning of sexual vio=
lation." The story [[The Rape of the Sabine Women]] is about abduction=
and it is in the context of the Romans subduing a people (the Sabines) fam=
ous for their bravery and austerity. As usual, taking the women was a part =
of the war and a part of the effort to Romanise a conquered people. It is n=
ot so much about dating or rape (as we now use the word) as about war and s=
ubjugation. <br>
<br>From the point of view of WP, there are germs of truth and germs of mis=
understanding all through the article and I use the word "germs" =
advisedly. In short, lots more work needed on this article!<br><br>Gillian<=
br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 October 2011 16:24, Sarah Stierch <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sarah.stierch at gmail.com">sarah.stierch@=
gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
Wow. <br><br>Just...wow. <br><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rkaldari at wikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">rk=
aldari at wikimedia.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<u></u>
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the
"dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations a=
s:<br>
<br>
* Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.<br>
<br>
* There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
messaging.<br>
<br>
* When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to
people their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites
or dating services.<br>
<br>
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:<br>
<br>
* During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty
and sex for affluence and status".<br>
<br>
* Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and
the United States often find it difficult to have a career as well
as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and
wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appeal=
ing
to men.<br>
<br>
It also includes lots of random advice like:<br>
<br>
* dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink
afterwards.<br>
<br>
* men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright =
colors', and
women should 'avoid sarcasm.'<br>
<br>
* Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock'=
; and
gaze intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in
ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their
shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.<br>
<br>
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!<br>
<br>
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use th=
e
painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows=
a guy
with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I
guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.<br>
<br>
Ryan Kaldari<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
<blockquote type=3D"cite">Apart from any content problems, the article =
had no
context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its
parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific
terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar
with American educational systems, aside from its social
practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students
live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a
go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to
the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating&qu=
ot; to "college
dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, =
as
the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university
could then be developed. <br>
<br>
Gillian<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sgardner at wikimedia.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">sgardner at wikimedia.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has
been tons<br>
of academic research and popular history written about the
history of<br>
dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' =
etc.
Even<br>
just within the United States.<br>
<br>
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey
was a<br>
really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-=
Century/dp/0801839351" target=3D"_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-=
Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351</a>.<br>
Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and
Barbara<br>
Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been
written about<br>
the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.<=
br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Sue<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
=EF=BB=BFSue Gardner<br>
Executive Director<br>
Wikimedia Foundation<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"tel:415%20839%206885" value=3D"+14158396885" target=3D=
"_blank">415 839 6885</a>=C2=A0office<br>
<a href=3D"tel:415%20816%209967" value=3D"+14158169967" target=3D=
"_blank">415 816 9967</a>=C2=A0cell<br>
<br>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely
share in<br>
the sum of all knowledge.=C2=A0 Help us make it a reality!<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate" target=3D"=
_blank">http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case<br>
<div>
<div><<a href=3D"mailto:dancase at frontiernet.net" target=3D"_=
blank">dancase at frontiernet.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Nathan<br>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM<br>
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia
projects<br>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
><br>
> I question whether "college dating" deserves a=
n
article to begin with.<br>
> If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at
all establish,<br>
> the current article has a pretty fatal case of
systemic bias.<br>
><br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0On the surface I tend to agree, but then I =
read
the AfD:<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wik=
ipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wi=
kipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating</a><br>
><br>
> Daniel Case<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Gendergap mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org" target=
=3D"_blank">Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/=
gendergap" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/g=
endergap</a><br>
><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Gendergap mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
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rgap" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gender=
gap</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
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=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
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=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br></div></div><font color=3D=
"#888888">-- <br><a href=3D"http://www.glamwiki.org" target=3D"_blank">GLAM=
WIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia</a><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikip=
edia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch" target=3D"_blank">Wikipedian-in-Residence,=
Archives of American Art</a> <br>
and<br>Sarah Stierch Consulting<div><i>Historical, cultural & artistic =
research & advising.</i><br>-------------------------------------------=
-----------<br><a href=3D"http://www.sarahstierch.com/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.sarahstierch.com/</a></div>
<br>
</font><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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