[Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe

[Ryan Kaldari]

Arnaud, I think you should not underestimate the impact of poverty as 
compared to religion. Before the Western world became the 1st World, the 
typical Christian was just as intolerant, bigoted, and patriarchal as 
your most extreme Muslim. Once Westerners went from being peasants to 
middle-class professionals, business became more important than 
religion, and the enemies of capitalism (communists) became the bogeyman 
rather than other religions. This pulled the rug out from Christianity, 
which used to have a monopoly on bogeymen. So Christianity had to go for 
the soft-sell and reinvent itself as a feel-good spiritual social club 
rather than fire and brimstone. All the sudden women could wear pants 
and run for office (and become priests). Of course the Christian Bible 
still says that women are subservient to their husbands (as Michelle 
Bachmann recently reminded us). It also endorses slavery, says that 
adulterers must be put to death, and requires men to grow beards. But 
who cares? If you live a comfortable life, religious dogma doesn't have 
much appeal.

Sociological studies have shown a strong correlation between patriarchal 
attitudes and lack of economic development. Look at the difference 
between Pakistan and Indonesia. Both are majority Muslim countries which 
officially endorse Sharia law. In Pakistan, religious fundamentalism is 
strong and women have little access to education, employment, or power. 
In Indonesia, there is far less religious fundamentalism and women have 
far more access to education, employment, and power (though still 
pitiful by Western standards). Women can even serve as Sharia judges in 
Indonesia, which would be heresy in Pakistan. If you compare the GDP per 
capita between the 2 counties, Indonesia's is over twice that of 
Pakistan. The effect is even more pronounced if you compare rural areas 
to urban areas rather than country to country.

Ryan Kaldari


On 9/23/11 1:56 AM, Arnaud HERVE wrote:
> Ok I will be a bit long here.
>
> On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote:
>> Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about 
>> Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the 
>> pretense of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right 
>> to choose. This is the unintended consequence.
>>
>> I get the practical arguments (ie, "I don't know who this person is" 
>> etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their 
>> wardrobe dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a 
>> non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or 
>> school uniform would qualify as being abused.
>
> That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of 
> garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, 
> with Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the 
> submission of women to men.
>
> It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a 
> personal choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance 
> between different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. 
> Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In 
> Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion.
>
> It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural 
> mind, like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. 
> A law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if 
> they are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, 
> then they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails 
> dividing the population into three categories ; Muslims who have full 
> dignity, Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to 
> occasional abuse, non believers or heathens who have no rights. This 
> also necessarily includes a loss of civic rights for all women.
>
> During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim 
> world. They were due to :
>
> - local customs atoning Islamic law
> - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States
>
> However this is disappearing now, due to :
>
> - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom 
> but as globally opposed to the Western world
> - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO
>
> Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured 
> because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces 
> suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's 
> capture was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the 
> fact that Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in 
> turn helps establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim 
> countries, with Western capital controlling the big business, the 
> local population subjected to religious obscurantism and not 
> participating to the democratic defense of their rights, and in 
> between a zealots mafia..
>
> In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has 
> rights. Not like an adult professional woman has rights and can call 
> her lawyer. In Islam if you have no husband and no father, then you 
> are subjected to the authority of your younger brother, who can decide 
> of your life for you, and occasionally beat you up if you don't obey. 
> In Islam you cannot divorce if you wish, only if the Muslim judge 
> thinks that your husband did something wrong according to Islamic law. 
> In Islam you cannot be raped by your husband, he is your husband it's 
> the word of God that he can do what he wants with you. In Islam if you 
> complain that you were raped by strangers, you have to prove first 
> that you were not sexually provocative. In Islam if you are found with 
> a person of the same sex, the community can stone you to death as they 
> wish.
>
> The reason why I write all that is that I have talked with feminists 
> from Muslim countries, so I try to convey their message.
>
> The first thing is that they really would like to get rid of Islam. 
> Not being mildly respected as a member of the Muslim community, but 
> really get rid of Islam, and being actively protected from it. They 
> want to have a life, they cannot even subscribe an insurance policy, 
> buy a car, go visit friends without the agreement of male relatives.
>
> Then there is the sociological problem, that Islam doesn't tolerate a 
> sexually neutral civic life. It might not be obvious in North America 
> because you are so used to it, but in order to have a professional 
> life women need to work in an environment where there are male 
> colleagues and clients, and therefore need laws against sexual 
> harassment, for the simple common sense reason that when you work you 
> work, you don't date. Islam doesn't do that, in Islam a woman is 
> either owned by the males of her family or her husband, and if she she 
> walks free from male authority then she is sexually available. The 
> male in turn is considered as immediately sexually eager and willing 
> to rape as soon as he sees a female in the absence of a relative from 
> her family.
>
> In that sense a male teacher alone with a girl is not decent, because 
> it is considered that the teacher will attempt to seduce her anytime, 
> and the girl will compulsorily feel a burning desire as well. I know, 
> I help the 10 years daughter of my Muslim neighbors every week with 
> her schoolwork, because the parents cannot read the language. And yet 
> I cannot be left alone with her, the father or the brother have to be 
> present in the same room.
>
> Walking in public spaces is tolerated if the girls are in groups only, 
> so there cannot be a moment alone with a man. For example a female 
> client talking to a male shopkeeper about a shop's product is a moment 
> of burning raging obscenity. Islam doesn't do free neutral space for 
> allowing women to develop civic activities. Let alone professional 
> activities.
>
> "Tolerant" Islam is gradually decreasing, and it is more and more the 
> radicals we will have to deal with. In dealing with women's rights we 
> will have to surrender to or to break Islam. Because once more, Islam 
> is not only a faith, it's a law, alw as in You Don't Choose.
>
> Last, let me quote you a short "dialogue" I recently witnessed on 
> Facebook. There was a girl from Algeria saying "Wow the weather is 
> still much too hot in this month of September. Then a male Algerian 
> replied "You don"t chose the weather, God choses the weather". That is 
> the kind of cultural life most educated girls in Muslim countries 
> would like to get rid of.
>
> Arnaud
>
>
>
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