[Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe

[Carol Moore in DC]

I've been procrastinating on replying, but I do agree with Fred and Emily.

Additionally, realize that many Islamists are really just a few decades 
behind most forms of Christianity and Judaism in its patriarchal 
dominance and bad attitudes towards women.

This is due in part to the reaction and over-reaction to continuing 
Western imperialism (including the dominant forms of expansionist 
Zionism), and the fact that "moderate" Muslims too often have sold out 
to the west. These facts have empowered the radical and anti-feminist 
Islamist elements.

And the U.S. and Israel particularly need a radical enemy so they can 
excuse massive war machines paid for by terrorized taxpayers who excuse 
the atrocities carried out by their militaries in their names.  I really 
resent and work to change various Wikipedia articles that use feminism 
as an excuse to slam all Muslims and make them the "enemy" worthy of 
attack.

Gender apartheid was one particularly bad article where there was 
WP:UNDUE emphasis (whole sections and long paragraphs) on this phrase 
being used against Islam, especially Undue considering that there is 
already a whole article on Sex segregation in Islam 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_segregation_in_Islam>. The editor 
trying to keep in the Undue material not only resorted to sock puppetry 
but vandalism of my web page and threat-laced emails galore.

So let's not forget that the the psychos on the issue of Islam and woman 
are everywhere.

On 9/23/2011 10:23 AM, Fred Bauder wrote:
> This rant is inappropriate.
>
> "Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam
> you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion."
>
> There is a grain of truth in such accusations, but you ascribe them to
> the entire religion.
>
> A part of what we are doing here is attempting to foster an atmosphere on
> Wikipedia where Muslim women feel welcome to edit. Wikimedia is a global
> multicultural organization.
>
> Fred
>
>> Ok I will be a bit long here.
>>
>> On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote:
>>> Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about
>>> Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the pretense
>>> of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right to choose.
>>> This is the unintended consequence.
>>>
>>> I get the practical arguments (ie, "I don't know who this person is"
>>> etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their wardrobe
>>> dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a
>>> non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or
>>> school uniform would qualify as being abused.
>> That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of
>> garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, with
>> Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the submission
>> of women to men.
>>
>> It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a personal
>> choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance between
>> different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. Islam
>> doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you
>> cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion.
>>
>> It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural mind,
>> like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. A
>> law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if they
>> are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, then
>> they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails dividing the
>> population into three categories ; Muslims who have full dignity,
>> Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to occasional abuse,
>> non believers or heathens who have no rights. This also necessarily
>> includes a loss of civic rights for all women.
>>
>> During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim
>> world. They were due to :
>>
>> - local customs atoning Islamic law
>> - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States
>>
>> However this is disappearing now, due to :
>>
>> - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom but
>> as globally opposed to the Western world
>> - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO
>>
>> Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured
>> because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces
>> suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's capture
>> was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the fact that
>> Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in turn helps
>> establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim countries,
>> with Western capital controlling the big business, the local population
>> subjected to religious obscurantism and not participating to the
>> democratic defense of their rights, and in between a zealots mafia..
>>
>> In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has
>> rights. Not like an adult professional woman has rights and can call her
>> lawyer. In Islam if you have no husband and no father, then you are
>> subjected to the authority of your younger brother, who can decide of
>> your life for you, and occasionally beat you up if you don't obey. In
>> Islam you cannot divorce if you wish, only if the Muslim judge thinks
>> that your husband did something wrong according to Islamic law. In Islam
>> you cannot be raped by your husband, he is your husband it's the word of
>> God that he can do what he wants with you. In Islam if you complain that
>> you were raped by strangers, you have to prove first that you were not
>> sexually provocative. In Islam if you are found with a person of the
>> same sex, the community can stone you to death as they wish.
>>
>> The reason why I write all that is that I have talked with feminists
>> from Muslim countries, so I try to convey their message.
>>
>> The first thing is that they really would like to get rid of Islam. Not
>> being mildly respected as a member of the Muslim community, but really
>> get rid of Islam, and being actively protected from it. They want to
>> have a life, they cannot even subscribe an insurance policy, buy a car,
>> go visit friends without the agreement of male relatives.
>>
>> Then there is the sociological problem, that Islam doesn't tolerate a
>> sexually neutral civic life. It might not be obvious in North America
>> because you are so used to it, but in order to have a professional life
>> women need to work in an environment where there are male colleagues and
>> clients, and therefore need laws against sexual harassment, for the
>> simple common sense reason that when you work you work, you don't date.
>> Islam doesn't do that, in Islam a woman is either owned by the males of
>> her family or her husband, and if she she walks free from male authority
>> then she is sexually available. The male in turn is considered as
>> immediately sexually eager and willing to rape as soon as he sees a
>> female in the absence of a relative from her family.
>>
>> In that sense a male teacher alone with a girl is not decent, because it
>> is considered that the teacher will attempt to seduce her anytime, and
>> the girl will compulsorily feel a burning desire as well. I know, I help
>> the 10 years daughter of my Muslim neighbors every week with her
>> schoolwork, because the parents cannot read the language. And yet I
>> cannot be left alone with her, the father or the brother have to be
>> present in the same room.
>>
>> Walking in public spaces is tolerated if the girls are in groups only,
>> so there cannot be a moment alone with a man. For example a female
>> client talking to a male shopkeeper about a shop's product is a moment
>> of burning raging obscenity. Islam doesn't do free neutral space for
>> allowing women to develop civic activities. Let alone professional
>> activities.
>>
>> "Tolerant" Islam is gradually decreasing, and it is more and more the
>> radicals we will have to deal with. In dealing with women's rights we
>> will have to surrender to or to break Islam. Because once more, Islam is
>> not only a faith, it's a law, alw as in You Don't Choose.
>>
>> Last, let me quote you a short "dialogue" I recently witnessed on
>> Facebook. There was a girl from Algeria saying "Wow the weather is still
>> much too hot in this month of September. Then a male Algerian replied
>> "You don"t chose the weather, God choses the weather". That is the kind
>> of cultural life most educated girls in Muslim countries would like to
>> get rid of.
>>
>> Arnaud
>>
>>
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-- 
Carol Moore in DC
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