[Gendergap] This list

Fri Mar 18 05:41:26 UTC 2011

Dear Sue & All, 

I am yet to experience sexism on Wikipedia however my reading of this list has only served to confuse me with regard to the gender gap issue. I am hoping that someone can clarify the following points with some kind of authority.

Is there any consensus in the Wikipedia/Wikimedia heirarchy that the Gender gap on Wikipedia is a problem that Wikipedia is trying to solve (apparently with the help of this list)?

Is there any consensus in the Wikipedia/Wikimedia heirarchy that women who attempt to contribute to Wikipedia are likely to be subject to chronic sexist remarks and that this is presumed to factor into the lower participation rates of women? 

What is the responsibility of Wikipedia/Wikimedia in protecting individuals from harrassment and in particular, any systemic abuse which is believed to be endemic to Wikipedia? 

How does Wikipedia take responsibility to ensure that when people come to Wikipedia to edit for the first time they are made aware of problems they may encounter (both due to their gender and more generally) and the actions they can take to address these issues?

What are the roles of the Wikimedia/Wikipedia hierarchy here on the list and do official representatives of these organisations have rights to determine the debate here that go beyond the power of other list members? 

What, if any quality assaurance guidelines, structure or policy is behind this list and the goal of reducing the gender gap on Wikipedia and the relationship between the two? 

thankyou for your time

Rosie Williams
http://women4wikipedia.net
http://collectiveaction.com.au
@collectiveact

> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:14:24 -0700
> From: Sue Gardner <sgardner at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Gendergap] This list
> To: gendergap <Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimoLEv9O9cLNPhxoh7LGr+bUegrO1bR=9d+qBEd at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Wow! I was absent for two days and this list caught fire! The newer
> mails feel like we've been nearer a resolution, but still: there was
> lots of heat :-(
> 
> I'm going to take a minute to try to summarize and reflect back a
> little. Bear with me: I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to be able to
> quote individuals or respond inline to earlier mails. But I have read
> everything.
> 
> To recap: Laura originally made a proposal to ask the men on this list
> to leave. Her rationale was that men have been inappropriately
> dominating the discussion here, which had the effect of silencing
> and/or frustrating women who expect and want this to be a safe,
> constructive space. I believe that in making that proposal, she was
> acting out of frustration not just on her own behalf, but on behalf of
> other women here who've been feeling silenced, whether they've spoken
> up or not.
> 
> If Laura's proposal had gotten significant support from women on this
> list, personally I would take that very seriously. It would make me
> sad to think that women here couldn't see a workable option that
> includes both women and men ----- but if there had seemed to be a
> consensus among women that a women-only list is desirable or better, I
> would buy that as a regrettable-but-accurate expression of where we're
> at.
> 
> But, although some people expressed agreement with the basics of what
> Laura said, there wasn't much support for the idea of kicking men off
> the list. So on that basis, we won't do it.
> 
> (To recap for anyone who doesn't know: Erik Moeller started this list
> at my request. That makes me the de facto owner, although I'm totally
> willing to share that responsibility with others, and I think we all
> have a responsibility to help self-govern.)
> 
> So. Having said that, personally I think the issues Laura raised are
> real, and the discussion they prompted was useful. I think some
> helpful stuff has gotten said, particularly when some of the quieter
> people started to speak up, and I'd like to now say a few things too.
> 
> Essentially: since the list started, a number of people (including me)
> have observed that i) there are a lot of men here, maybe more than
> women, and ii) the men have talked quite a bit. Certainly there have
> been times on this list when I felt like a small number of men were
> dominating the conversation, and occasionally also seeming to me to
> deny women's experiences, and/or to tell them how to feel about them.
> (Lots of men were also asking questions or just listening or offering
> support of various kinds.)
> 
> That didn't surprise me: I think it's "normal." If you're a man, and
> you've been trained that your opinion is valuable and wanted: well,
> then you are fairly likely to believe that, and to act accordingly.
> Similarly, a couple of women here have talked about how they've been
> socialized to stay quiet and to defer, and that therefore that's what
> they tend to do. In general, I think it would be hard to fault people
> too much for their cultural conditioning. And honestly, women here are
> likelier to be more aware of (and thoughtful about) our conditioning
> than men are, because as the non-dominant group we've had to think
> about it more. So I am not surprised that some men here haven't been
> (IMO) super self-reflective and self-moderating. And I am also,
> honestly, not surprised to see a few women get really, really angry
> about that, because my guess is this is not their first time at that
> rodeo ;-)
> 
> I think that everyone here has a responsibility to try to be
> self-aware about how their behaviour is affecting other people. The
> Quakers have a really nice principle for their meetings, that in
> general, quiet people should aim to talk more, and talkative people
> should aim to restrain themselves. I think that's a really good rule.
> I would like to hear more from the people here who've been holding
> back. And I believe we would hear more, if the talkative people were a
> little more restrained.
> 
> I also want to say something about men on this list, in general.
> Personally, I believe we need to have, and want to have, and should
> have, men on this list. I say that because I want Wikipedia to have
> more female editors, and I think that the men here can and should be
> (and want to be!) part of the solution, working towards that.
> 
> Thirteen per cent of Wikipedia editors are women. I assume that many
> of those women have no interest in personally, themselves, working to
> increase the number of women editors on Wikipedia. Which is totally
> fine with me: why should they? If they didn't sign up to be gender
> warriors, then they shouldn't be gender warriors: they are in no way
> obligated to do it.
> 
> But somebody's got to make this happen, and I'm happy to have allies
> regardless of their gender. I consider everyone on this list an ally.
> Nobody here IMO is trolling, and I'm really happy that nobody here is
> contesting the basic premise: that we want to fix this problem.
> Everybody's acting in good faith: I truly believe that. Some of us are
> probably inadvertently offensive, and some of that offence comes out
> of unexamined privilege, for sure. And some of the women here have
> expressed lots of anger and frustration, some of which probably
> doesn't belong on this list, but spills out here because it's been
> brewing for years due to their experiences elsewhere, in addition to
> their experiences on Wikipedia and/or this list.
> 
> I think we all have a responsibility to try to be our best possible
> selves here --- by which I mean our most generous, constructive,
> helpful, collaborative, trusting, listening, understanding selves.
> Everybody's damaged; nobody's perfect; we're all going to make plenty
> of mistakes. But everybody here wants to solve this problem: that's
> why we're here. It's going to be a lot of work, and we're going to
> need all different types of people. A bunch of non-mutually-exclusive
> categories: we will need radical feminists, plus experienced editors,
> plus new editors, plus external observers, plus people who like to
> question and probe, plus staff people, plus men exploring their
> privilege and thinking about these issues for the first time, plus
> lurkers. Plus plus plus.
> 
> We've all got a role to play. And I hope we all want to continue the
> work we've started :-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ?Sue Gardner
> Executive Director
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 
> 415 839 6885 office
> 415 816 9967 cell
> 
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge.? Help us make it a reality!
> 
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> 
> 
> End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 2, Issue 27
> ****************************************

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110318/120753a4/attachment-0001.htm 