[Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove

Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
Sun Oct 30 12:05:37 UTC 2011

There are a few issues:

   - the choice of what is going to be developed is very much a management
   issue; what gets priority and why
   - there are always people who object to any project because they are of
   the opinion that something else should  be considered to be more relevant
   - when something is developed FOR a specific project, giving that
   project the option to opt out once it is developed defeats the objective of
   the functionality; such a decision is very much taken at the start of the
   - I know that a thread like this is read. Good proposals are considered
   when they stand out as such. Personally I like the notion of leaving a
   message as the first option..
   - I positively hate talk pages, prefer not to use them. I am a seasoned
   Wikimedian and when people like me are this negative about talk pages, then
   the notion that they are good / usable / can be left alone is suspect.
   - have you considered that many of the advanced functionalities used in
   the English Wikipedia are actually REALLY problematic in other languages -
   ease of use, even dumbing down is in my opinion acceptable when this grows
   our editor community in our projects other then the English Wikipedia
   - I am known for my hobby horses; working for the "Localisation team"
   allows me to be part of much good work. However, there are still many
   things that are not going to be developed any time soon that I rate highly


On 30 October 2011 12:17, WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers at gmail.com>wrote:

> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:40:37 +0200
> > From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove
> > To: fae at wikimedia.org.uk,       Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> >        <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >        <CAO53wxW=
> UwegSJZgTbk24D69zgd4EOwoGpypKbdQnJqXSEqKMw at mail.gmail.com
> > >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Hoi,
> > I am happy to make a distinction of what I do officially and what I say
> > because I am personally of a particular opinion. This is very much my
> > personal opinion.
> >
> > There have been LOADS of opportunities where the community is asked,
> begged
> > to be involved in what will be the way forward. The most obvious
> > opportunity has been the Strategy project. At this time the Wikimedia
> > Foundation is looking for all sorts of volunteers that are asked to help
> > determine what future functionality will be like. Specifically I want to
> > mention the need for "language support teams" and volunteers for our
> mobile
> > development.
> >
> > The position of the WMF as I know it is that it wants very much an
> involved
> > community. To be effective, it is important for the community to be
> > involved early in the process. Sadly many people want to be only involved
> > at the end of the process. This does not help much and particularly not
> on
> > issues that are not the bread and butter of working on content by the
> > existing community.
> >
> > I made points in my previous mail. They have not been addressed. We agree
> > on the need for community involvement. The WMF has a strong tradition on
> > involving its communities. My argument is that the programs that are
> > discussed are very much monitored for their effect, based on the results
> > the functionality will be tweaked. My argument is that these programs are
> > the result of community consultation and therefore community involvement
> is
> > the origin of the functionality we are discussing.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> >
> > Hi Gerard,
> What changes do and do not require consensus is a fascinating issue, but
> not I think related to my query re Wikilove. Brandon has told us that the
> devs are only installing wikilove on wikis where there is a consensus for
> it.  Hence my request for a link to the discussion that established
> consensus for the introduction of Wikilove on EN wikipedia, as I seem to
> have missed that debate and was having difficulty finding it. I'm not
> trying to reopen the debate, I'm not actually opposed to wikilove if that's
> what a bunch of editors want to volunteer their time for. If it was tweaked
> as per Geni's proposal it might actually become a net positive. I just
> wanted to read the discussion and see how that consensus was achieved. If
> it's true that every wiki except for the EN Wikipedia gets the chance to
> decide whether or not they want it then I wonder why that was the case, and
> what that says about the Foundation's attitude to our largest community of
> editors.
> If wikilove was developed on Foundation money then I think it sad that this
> was prioritised above so many more important things. For example a big part
> of any welcome template is this bizarre looking instruction to sign posts
> on talkpages with ~~~~. Aside from the signing business the original design
> of talkpages is way superior and more newby friendly than liquid threads,
> but it could do with one small enhancement; Autosign on talkpages, with the
> preference defaulted to off for anyone who has signed a talkpage and on for
> anyone who hasn't, including of course all new accounts from now onwards.
> Implement that and we can easily improve the welcome templates, and greatly
> reduce the number of newbies who raise a query on a talkpage only to be
> responded with an admonition about their failure to sign their posting.
> Then there is that one little bug in Cat a lot that prevents if from being
> used to tackle the Commons categorisation backlog
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Gadget-Cat-a-lot.js#Hidden_categories_and_GLAMEither
> of those would be way more important than Wikilove, the Article
> Feedback tool or the image filter. On a different scale altogether is the
> question of whether Museums and other GLAMS should skip us and go directly
> to Flickr. Balboa Park has set out fairly clearly why they've taken the
> decision to use Flickr rather than Commons
> http://futureofmuseums.blogspot.com/2011/10/building-better-fishing-pole-how.htmlI'd
> like to know how many developers the Foundation has working to catch
> up
> there.
> There is a broader point, a willingness to invest in things that might be
> of use to hypothetical groups of potential new editors really shouldn't
> come at the expense of neglecting the needs of the existing editor base. We
> have an editor retention problem and one way to confront that is to invest
> in fixing the problems that those editors raise and improve the tools they
> use. Another is to empower the community and put them in control of their
> projects. Only introducing new features where there is consensus for
> implementation is a step towards that. A bigger step, and a way to get much
> much better value from our IT budget is to get community input on the
> priority of new features. The Image filter referendum made a small step
> towards that by having a question about its importance. A more meaningful
> consultation would be to give editors the ability to rate the relative
> importance of a bunch of potential enhancements "How much do you want
> this?" Should be the second question after "Do you want this?". The least
> lovely feature of Wikilove as with the Article Feedback Tool is to think of
> all the amazing things that could have been done instead.
> WereSpielChequers
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