[Foundation-l] Fwd: Wikimedia India Program Trust

Tue Nov 15 10:01:39 UTC 2011

I am not going the respond inline, as it may confuse many a readers like
me. I will also try to answer below various questions/comments from
multiple mails/ people. Some of my comments may be general and not directed
to anyone in particular.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, whether he is a chapter member or not. I
reserve my right to free opinion just like anyone does. I didn't either
intend to undermine the great works of anyone. I am aware that "whipping
foundation label" is very cool these days, but I am not for it. I may have
disagreements of some of the "foundation way" or "chapter way" , but I
express my concerns on issues only.

The reason that I had mentioned that the formation of trust was announced
in earlier co-ordination meetings was that whosoever had concerns earlier
could have raised it even then. The fact that Sunil Abraham was made as one
of the trustees was indeed not mentioned in the meetings, all i meant was I
think he is well eligible for his contributions as a trustee for the WIPT.
Does every chapter share every minute things of its proceedings with the
foundation or the community?

I am not here to say whether hiring Hisham or any foundation staff is right
to wrong. AFAIK, the foundation encouraged/s community members to apply for
various positions and I could point to you a lots of examples where active
community members have been hired. Everywhere possible, whenever eligible
and qualified candidates from the community are available, they have been
hired, AFAIK. If I choose to work on a volunteer basis on part time, it is
my own wish... And if I want work on full time for the movement, without
worrying about my daily bread, it is also my wish. The choice is strictly
personal. So is it cool if some people joins the foundation and not when
some other people ? We, Wikipedians, claim to be open & welcoming and vow
to not bite the new comers, but in reality we form cabals and resists
anyone new who comes to the movement, ...hah, ... they are all outsiders !

"Oh I can whip everyone personally, but don't you dare to touch me"
attitude is also not productive. I am tired of seeing foundation-l used for
personal grudges and attacks. I am tired seeing sock puppet accounts been
made to just launch personal attacks on individuals on the mailing
lists/forums. It is not just one time, but many a times.

So finally it all boils down to funding and money, right ? Who gets the
bigger share and who gets the smaller share? Is that all we care about ? Is
that why we are all in the movement? I would have been much personally much
richer, if I  ( like many others) had put my energy, time and concentration
elsewhere than putting on a movement that is very close to my/our hearts.
Our family and friends would have much appreciated if we had spend time
more with them, instead. But that is my/our choice and I am happy about it.
We are just doing it because we are just passionate about it.

Regards
Tinu Cherian

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Béria Lima <berialima at gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > *Having said that I must politely disagree with some of the views of
> > Anirudh, my fellow Executive Member and Salmaan ( Theo) , a member of
> > Wikimedia India chapter. But I do respect their personal views , but I
> > guess we agree to disagree.
> > *
>
>
> So, your idea of "politeness" include offend other member of your chapter?
> I already had been tagged as impolite, but not even I got that low. And
> that create a second question: Is that office worth the price to divide the
> chapter in 2 or more groups?
>
> * The news of the formation of Wikimedia India Program Trust wasn't
> > anything new to the chapter EC as it was mentioned in last two Chapter -
> > Foundation Co-ordination meetings, if I remember correctly.*
> >
>
> So, WMF "remembered" to warn the chapter 2 months ago about a project they
> are conducting for the past year? And you think that is ok? You can't see
> the miscommunication here?
>
> *When it comes to "paid contractors/staff ", I don't see a difference
> > between Theo[1] or Hisham, except that Hisham is working for a longer
> term.
> > So what?*
> >
>
> I have not to add besides what Theo said. The main and bigger difference is
> that one is a well know and long term wikimedian, the other happens to have
> a job who deal with wikis.
>
> *The way I see is India is a land of immense potential for the Wikimedia
> > Movement. IMHO, There is enough space of 10 chapters and Wikimedia
> offices
> > to co-exist and work together in India.*
> >
>
> Did you ever read the Chapter Agreement you signed with WMF? That document
> states that WMIN is the ONLY chapter of WMF in India, and that any one
> organization must have their "approval" to work in Indian soil (I'm saying
> that based in WMPT agreement, WMIN one might be different.)
>
> Best regards,
> *Béria Lima*
>
> Who sincerely hope that this office don't became a arm of mass destruction
> for Indian Chapter and community.
> *
>
> Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
> acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir
> esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*
>
>
> On 14 November 2011 18:14, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > The following comments are my personal view and not necessarily of an
> > Executive Member of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
> >
> > Having said that I must politely disagree with some of the views of
> > Anirudh, my fellow Executive Member and Salmaan ( Theo) , a member of
> > Wikimedia India chapter. But I do respect their personal views , but I
> > guess we agree to disagree.
> >
> > The news of the formation of Wikimedia India Program Trust wasn't
> anything
> > new to the chapter EC as it was mentioned in last two Chapter -
> Foundation
> > Co-ordination meetings, if I remember correctly. And Sunil Abraham ,
> > Director of Centre of Internet & Society ( CIS) is a patron of Wikimedia
> > movement in India and chapter in India, not to forget that CIS have been
> > sharing their office space for the chapter and Wikimeetups in Bangalore,
> or
> > all the help CIS was doing for boot strapping the chapter.
> >
> > When it comes to "paid contractors/staff ", I don't see a difference
> > between Theo[1] or Hisham, except that Hisham is working for a longer
> term.
> > So what? Not every work can be done as a volunteer. As far as I
> understand,
> > the foundation is also committed to support the chapters and community
> > alike.
> >
> > The way I see is India is a land of immense potential for the Wikimedia
> > Movement. IMHO, There is enough space of 10 chapters and Wikimedia
> offices
> > to co-exist and work together in India.  When there are more than enough
> > work to do, I don't understand why this hue and cry.
> >
> > There is only one who could diminish the importance of the chapter, the
> > chapter itself. The road ahead for us is not easy but there are tons of
> > things to do. We have our advantages but limitations too. Our current
> bank
> > balance [2] is not more than a night's tariff at a decent hotel. The
> board
> > members does the clerical work of receiving membership applications to
> > posting individual snail mail letters of acceptance of membership. In
> spite
> > of all these, we do this for the passion and love for the movement. It
> does
> > come at the sacrifice of our own professional/career growths or the
> > wonderful time we would otherwise have spend with our family and friends.
> > But we are proud to Wikipedians/Wikimedians! And we love what we are
> doing.
> >
> > Foundation-Community-Chapter-India Trust...Yea, it is complicated and the
> > model may or may not be the best.. But that is the reality. Let us all
> work
> > together for the movement.
> >
> > Regards
> > Tinu Cherian
> >
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors
> > 2) http://wiki.wikimedia.in/images/0/06/WMIN-AnnualReport2010-11.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Anirudh Bhati <anirudhsbh at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > My personal opinion, and I only speak for myself and not the Chapter or
> > the
> > > Foundation (I wouldn't dare!).
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk at effeietsanders.org
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > thanks a lot all for exmplaining the differences. I would be very
> much
> > > > interested to know more about the ''relationship'' between the trust
> > and
> > > > Wikimedia India. You seem to suggest that trustees get appointed by
> (or
> > > on
> > > > the advice of - not sure of the legal wording) the WMF - but will
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > India be involved in that too? Since they are the chapter in that
> > > country I
> > > > could imagine them to have a say in it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nope.  Up until now WMIN has not received any say either with the India
> > > Education Programs design and implementation or the structuring of the
> > > Wikimedia India Program Trust.  And given that not many people are
> going
> > to
> > > talk about it, I don't think much will change in the future.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > How closely will this trust and the chapter work together? You
> mention
> > > that
> > > > there is communication etc - but is cooperation likely to become the
> > > > default or the exception?
> > >
> > >
> > > From my own experience and from what I have heard from a fellow Pune
> > > community member, the general community and the Chapter body have been
> > > excluded and ignored by WMF consultants from the very beginning.  In
> > fact,
> > > the Chapter representatives were only invited to attend meetings when
> > Frank
> > > Schlenburg and Annie Lin were in town.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > And how will it work with regards of who will be the primary point of
> > > > contact in India for institutions who want to partner with Wikimedia?
> > > Will
> > > > they have to approach one of the two or whichever they like (and if
> > they
> > > > dont get the answer they like, can they just approach the other?).
> Will
> > > the
> > > > chapter and the trust be competing with each other or collaborating?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think there is already a lot of confusion with regard to the two
> > entities
> > > operating out of India.  Going by the media, news reporters are already
> > > very confused by the existence of two Wikimedia bodies and I personally
> > get
> > > a lot of queries every week asking me to clarify on the location of
> > > Wikimedia offices.  With its paid consultants, the local WMF
> consultants
> > > have done a good job of making their presence felt (especially in
> Western
> > > India), and more and more journalists are interested in hearing from
> WMF
> > > (the "international organization") than WMIN.
> > >
> > > The initial idea, if I understood it correctly, was to establish
> another
> > > non-profit body within India, for a period of three to five years to
> > > execute specific (and large-scale) programmes.  As of now, the WIPT
> > > (Wikimedia India Program Office) can pretty much do anything it wants
> > with
> > > the Wikimedia brand - partner with institutions, raise money locally,
> > have
> > > paid employees and bypass community.  This is what I foresee happening:
> > >  WMIN will be involved in community-building and small-scale projects
> > which
> > > support volunteers and the WIPT will partner with large institutions in
> > > India (who are understandably looking to club with international
> > > organizations), get a lot of media coverage and acquire the big grants
> > > (since WMIN is not a professional body).  WMIN and WIPT will
> > theoretically
> > > compete for funding within India, much of which will be allocated to
> > WIPT,
> > > given that it is professionalized (and because we never had a chance)
> and
> > > in WMF's good graces.  This is how WMIN has been made redundant
> > (something
> > > that I have been saying for a long, long time).
> > >
> > > The most important difference, something many are uncomfortable talking
> > > about, is in the distribution of money.  The WIPT in India will have
> > access
> > > to *significantly *more WMF funding than WMIN (significant meaning
> *real
> > > significant*).  Around the time when discussions about the India Office
> > > began, Barry came to India and assured us that the WIPT will only be
> here
> > > for a period of 3-5 years.  I am hopeful that the Foundation will stick
> > to
> > > its words, and with time we will all learn that small volunteer-driven
> > > projects have a larger impact than costly, ill-designed, large-scale
> > > programmes run by hired consultants who hire consultants with no
> relevant
> > > background (with a couple of exceptions).
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for helping me seeing the situation more clearly,
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, thank you for asking the right questions.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Lodewijk
> > > >
> > > >
> > > anirudh
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
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