[Foundation-l] Fwd: Pt-Portuguese Wikipedia
Virgilio A. P. Machado
vam at fct.unl.pt
Wed Mar 24 00:05:21 UTC 2010
That is a good idea, but you have the work cut
out for you. Simply e-mail the article
«Portuguese language» to the largest possible
number of professors of Portuguese at the most
prestigious universities in the world and in both
Portugal and Brazil and ask for their comments. A
few things in that article and in both the
«European Portuguese» and «Brazilian Portuguese»
could use a few touches. You got to send out the
article to a lot of professors to unsure that
you'll get a few answers. Be sure to ask
permission to publish their comments. Copy/Paste
them to the article discussion page and there you have it.
That is the long road. The short way? Take a look
at the articles «Língua portuguesa», «Português
europeu», and «Português brasileiro»? Would you
trust those responsible for an Encyclopedia that
have the articles about their own language in
that sorry state? OK, not all is that bad. You
can always feast your eyes in the excellent
translation made in «Futebol», or for something
completely different, how about «Bruna Ferraz»?
If you're male and above 18, don't miss on what
the Commons have to offer. For something
Portuguese, you can take a look at «Braga». I do
agree that those two towers of the cathedral
don't stand a chance in the comparison.
A final note. It is perfectly alright with
everybody to say «Brazilian Portuguese». I wonder
what Google might have to say about the
difference between «European Portuguese» and
«Portuguese of Portugal» (not even mentioned in
the English version, but written as an
alternative title in the Portuguese version -
«português de Portugal»). European Portuguese?
Only in Wikipedia. I bet you that if you asked on
the street about it, people would not know what
you're talking about or wonder if it is the
Portuguese used in Brussels or some other place
like that. I don't think such thing even exists.
There's always been one and only one Portuguese,
the Portuguese of Portugal. Everything else are
just its descendancy spread all over the world, aside from syphilis, of course.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 21:03 23-03-2010, you wrote:
>As an example, maybe an article, possibly a featured one on the site be
>assigned to a few Brazilian Portuguese speakers to edit and to a few
>European Portuguese speakers to edit to their respective dialects, AND not
>on content. Measures could be taken to check that these are not biased
>'separatist' editors, and then at least we can assess the severity of the
>issue.
>And since most of this discussion is between non native speakers of either
>dialect (as the en community seems to be policing the wiki-world (not much
>different from the real world...)) hopefully there is at least one
>Portuguese-English speaker who can relay the findings back to us non
>speakers?
>Just a thought.
>
>On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam at fct.unl.pt>wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I could not grasp the argument "that the fomentation
> > around the European Portuguese issue seems to be perennial" is "clear
> > evidence that the community within the Portuguese wikipedia has a
> > very good handle on the issue." Does it mean that if a problem
> > doesn't go away it's because it is well handled?
> >
> > I'm glad someone considers addressing matters of one's language a
> > pastime and salute the agreement that you don't have to know
> > Portuguese to engage in such pastime. Everybody should have a hobby
> > of some kind. Writing to a mailing list could be one. I do have other
> > things to do, but this is so much more fun.
> >
> > Nice try that of mentioning Galician, but that is a controversial
> > issue and I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. It would also
> > make you terribly unpopular in a lot of Spanish circles of power.
> > There might be a mistake in the statement that those two wikipedias
> > relate to the Portuguese language grouping. I believe the
> > non-controversial wording is Portuguese-Galician language grouping.
> >
> > I read with great interest the considerations about "how to discern
> > the degree of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects", that
> > it is "easy to weigh the pros and the cons [,of creating a European
> > Portuguese only wikipedia] and come to a fair *evaluation* that it
> > would be a very problematic "solution". I was very entertained by a
> > "personal evaluation" and that someone of great authority in these
> > matters doesn't "think a European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case
> > where it is ideally justified." One must be really clever to reach
> > all those conclusion so easily. I surely don't have an answer for
> > that, myself, but would love to see, and I am willing to contribute
> > to a serious study of the problem.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Virgilio A. P. Machado
> >
> >
> > At 14:44 23-03-2010, you wrote:
> > >Virgilio A. P. Machado wrote:
> > > > I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the
> > > > Portuguese community can see a problem" unless
> > > > one personal opinion should be considered proof.
> > > >
> > > > The statement was not about anybody outside the
> > > > Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that
> > > > "the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that
> > > > is being addressed here corroborates that
> > > > statement. Examples of previous discussions were
> > > > also provided spanning a period of five years. No
> > > > evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e.,
> > > > that the issue does not keep popping up.
> > > >
> > >There is also clear evidence that the community
> > >within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good
> > >handle on the issue, for all that the fomentation
> > >around the European Portuguese issue seems to be
> > >perennial.
> > >
> > > > If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about
> > > > nothing" that might be because appearances can be
> > > > deceiving and burring your head in the sand or
> > > > looking the other way will not make any existing
> > > > problems go away, although everybody is entitled
> > > > to ignore them. That's a very common attitude
> > > > when the problems are not at your doorstep,
> > > > although there's always the danger that they will
> > > > eventually get there. Again, the very fact that
> > > > this discussion is taking place here is a symptom
> > > > that there is a fuss about something.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >To me it seems that the great majority of people
> > >who are themselves on the Portuguese wikipedia
> > >do not think raising this issue time and again is
> > >a useful pastime. Thus the issue of whether you are
> > >or are not Portuguese language speaking yourself,
> > >seems to me a moot point.
> > >
> > > > No statements were made concerning the creation
> > > > or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to
> > > > know that someone believes that "the wider
> > > > Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki
> > > > solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such
> > > > a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about
> > > > the specific needs of specific projects. Until
> > > > the problems and needs are properly accessed it
> > > > is premature to dismiss any alternative solution.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >I'll agree that "two-wiki solution" in this connection
> > >is very poor phrasing. Adding a European Portuguese
> > >only wikipedia wouldn't be a solution, and it wouldn't
> > >be "two-wiki", since I believe there currently exist
> > >*at least* two wikipedias relating to the Portuguese
> > >language grouping, namely Portuguese and Galician.
> > >
> > >The issue is really whether how to discern the degree
> > >of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects,
> > >including not only European and Brazilian but the
> > >African, creole Portuguese etc, and which can not
> > >reasonably be expected to be able to contribute
> > >within the default Portuguese wikipedia.
> > >
> > >One does not need to dismiss a proposed solution,
> > >to point out the inherent problems with it. And
> > >creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia
> > >would create many problems, of such weight, that
> > >though not dismissing the concept as a theoretical
> > >possibility, it is easy to weigh the pros and the cons,
> > >and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a
> > >very problematic "solution".
> > >
> > >My personal evaluation tends to be that an European
> > >only wikipedia is not a good solution, though I am not
> > >sure about the African Portuguese or the Creole Portuguese
> > >cases -- purely because I have not at all studied
> > >the issues with those. I would agree that there is still
> > >perhaps too much resistance towards creating
> > >separate wikipedias for creoles, dialects and the
> > >like -- in the general case -- though I don't think a
> > >European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where
> > >it is ideally justified.
> > >
> > >
> > >Yours,
> > >
> > >Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
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> > >foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
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> >
> >
> > Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam at fct.unl.pt
> > Engenharia
> > Industrial
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/
> >
> DEMI/FCT/UNL<http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/%0ADEMI/FCT/UNL>
> Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531
> > Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461
> > 2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or
> > 21-294-8567
> > PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500
> > Ext.112-32
> > 96-577-3726
> > Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
> >
> > (Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the
> > School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
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Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam at fct.unl.pt
Engenharia
Industrial
http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/
DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531
Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461
2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567
PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500
Ext.112-32
96-577-3726
Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
(Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the
School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
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