[Foundation-l] foundation-l Digest, Vol 72, Issue 29

Thu Mar 11 22:34:04 UTC 2010

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From: foundation-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:42:20 
To: <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: foundation-l Digest, Vol 72, Issue 29

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Tim Starling)
   2. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Marc Riddell)
   3. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Brian J Mingus)
   4. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Michael Snow)
   5. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Brian J Mingus)
   6. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Marc Riddell)
   7. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Michael Snow)
   8. Re: Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (Brian J Mingus)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:10:25 -0800
From: Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <hnb862$ho6$1 at dough.gmane.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 01:40, Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus at colorado.edu>wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8560469.stm
>>>
>>> We're the biggest non-profit website in the world. That sounds like
>>> argument for us to get the prize money to me.
>>>
>> The Internet is definitely worthy of the prize as a whole but I'm not
>> following the logic that for-profit websites are more deserving. Google,
>> for
>> example, is a major force for peace. In fact it is the biggest popularizer
>> of Wikimedia content.
>>
>>
> Yes, but Google doesn't really need the prize money.
> 
> Although giving it all to Wikimedia is probably not quite right either.

Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.

Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
more bizarre choice than last year.

-- Tim Starling

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:05 -0500
From: Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <C7BE9651.1C5EF%michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

> on 3/11/10 12:10 PM, Tim Starling at tstarling at wikimedia.org wrote:

> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
> more bizarre choice than last year.
> 
> -- Tim Starling
> 
"Bizarre"? See beyond the visible, Tim.

Marc Riddell

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:45:16 -0700
From: Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus at Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<9839a05c1003110945w28665a14hc542ef2c03e60d07 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org>wrote:

> Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 01:40, Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus at colorado.edu
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com
> >>> wrote:
> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8560469.stm
> >>>
> >>> We're the biggest non-profit website in the world. That sounds like
> >>> argument for us to get the prize money to me.
> >>>
> >> The Internet is definitely worthy of the prize as a whole but I'm not
> >> following the logic that for-profit websites are more deserving. Google,
> >> for
> >> example, is a major force for peace. In fact it is the biggest
> popularizer
> >> of Wikimedia content.
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, but Google doesn't really need the prize money.
> >
> > Although giving it all to Wikimedia is probably not quite right either.
>
> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
>
> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
> more bizarre choice than last year.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace given
our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet a
reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable international
relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected as
POTUS, etc... Given that we must put men and women in harms way and we must
drop bombs it makes sense to do so in the most responsible way possible.
These unmanned bombers are a step in the right direction. Similarly for
anti-missile lasers. Supposing a hostile nation lobs an ICBM in our
direction if we are capable of zapping it out of the sky then we can avoid
war entirely. It means that we will not have to retaliate with a
counter-ICBM. How is that not for peace? How can you disparage these
technologies with tongue in cheek? A world without them would be utopia for
sure. We do not live in utopia.

Speaking as someone who has been funded by DARPA (I am now funded by
[[IARPA]]) and whose research cannot be used for war I can say that not
everything they do deserves to be described with insidious undertones. Much
of what DARPA invests in has no practical application within any reasonable
time frame. Furthermore I would note that the D is for Defense, and Defense
does not just mean developing new weapons. More and more defense for us
means stopping a threat in its early development so that nobody gets hurt.

Lastly I will note two reasons that the Internet should have been nominated
(not that it will necessarily win - it is against > 200 other nominees!)

   - Free access to the sum of all human knowledge for those who have it.
   That's 25% of the world and a recent survey showed that > 80% believe that
   everyone deserves access to the Internet as a fundamental right, including >
   70% of those who aren't even connected yet.
   - Secondly, the Internet for Peace Manifesto (
   http://www.internetforpeace.org/uploads/manifesto/manifesto_english.zip):

We have finally realized that the Internet is much more than a network of
> computers. It is an endless web of people.
>
> Men and women from every corner of the globe are connecting to one another
> thanks to the biggest social interface ever known to humanity.
>
> Digital culture has laid the foundations for a new kind of society. And
> this society is advancing dialogue, debate and consensus through
> communication.
>
> Because democracy has always flourished where there is openness,
> acceptance, discussion and participation. And contact with others has always
> been the most effective antidote against hatred and conflict.
>
> That's why the Internet is a tool for peace.
>
> That's why anyone who uses it can sow the seeds of non-violence.
>
> And that's why the next Nobel Peace Prize should go to the Net.
> A Nobel for each and every once of us.
>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:03:37 -0800
From: Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4B993079.6010303 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Brian J Mingus wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org>wrote:
>   
>> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
>> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
>> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
>>
>> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
>> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
>> more bizarre choice than last year.
>>
>> -- Tim Starling
>>     
> I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace given
> our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
> acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet a
> reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable international
> relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected as
> POTUS, etc...
Can we discuss something else, rather than having the list get 
sidetracked into geopolitical debates that aren't at all useful to the 
work we do? Aside from fantasizing about a share of the prize money, 
even the original subject was not especially on-topic for discussion 
here. Thank you.

--Michael Snow

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:07:17 -0700
From: Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus at Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<9839a05c1003111007o5c636565l464f147d61e018da at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net>wrote:

> Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
> >> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
> >> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
> >>
> >> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
> >> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
> >> more bizarre choice than last year.
> >>
> >> -- Tim Starling
> >>
> > I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace given
> > our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
> > acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet a
> > reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable
> international
> > relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected as
> > POTUS, etc...
> Can we discuss something else, rather than having the list get
> sidetracked into geopolitical debates that aren't at all useful to the
> work we do? Aside from fantasizing about a share of the prize money,
> even the original subject was not especially on-topic for discussion
> here. Thank you.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
Yes, hardly anything is relevant for discussion on this list anymore. It
happens either on internal WMF mailing lists or IRL.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:18:30 -0500
From: Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <C7BE9E26.1C5F6%michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

> Brian J Mingus wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling
>> <tstarling at wikimedia.org>wrote:
>> 
>>> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
>>> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
>>> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
>>> 
>>> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
>>> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
>>> more bizarre choice than last year.
>>> 
>>> -- Tim Starling
>>> 
>> I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace given
>> our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
>> acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet a
>> reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable international
>> relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected as
>> POTUS, etc...

on 3/11/10 1:03 PM, Michael Snow at wikipedia at verizon.net wrote:

> Can we discuss something else, rather than having the list get
> sidetracked into geopolitical debates that aren't at all useful to the
> work we do? Aside from fantasizing about a share of the prize money,
> even the original subject was not especially on-topic for discussion
> here. Thank you.
> 
> --Michael Snow

"Sidetracked" from what? And, how does this discussion interfere with your
work, or your day, Michael?

MR

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:20:38 -0800
From: Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4B993476.5020908 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Brian J Mingus wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net>wrote:
>   
>> Brian J Mingus wrote:
>>     
>>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org
>>> wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
>>>> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
>>>> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
>>>> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
>>>> more bizarre choice than last year.
>>>>
>>>> -- Tim Starling
>>>>         
>>> I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace given
>>> our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
>>> acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet a
>>> reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable
>>>       
>> international
>>     
>>> relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected as
>>> POTUS, etc...
>>>       
>> Can we discuss something else, rather than having the list get
>> sidetracked into geopolitical debates that aren't at all useful to the
>> work we do? Aside from fantasizing about a share of the prize money,
>> even the original subject was not especially on-topic for discussion
>> here. Thank you.
>>
>> --Michael Snow
>>     
> Yes, hardly anything is relevant for discussion on this list anymore. It
> happens either on internal WMF mailing lists or IRL.
>   
It's not that those discussions wouldn't be relevant to have on this 
list, and periodically people try and encourage others to move them to a 
more public setting. It's that when this list continues to show a 
tendency for conversation to degenerate, as it just did, then it's quite 
hard to persuade people that they should want to have their discussions 
here.

--Michael Snow

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:41:53 -0700
From: Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus at Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Internet nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<9839a05c1003111041t41a95d49r235f6f6a97195997 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net>wrote:

> Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia at verizon.net
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Brian J Mingus wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Tim Starling <
> tstarling at wikimedia.org
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Give the Nobel Peace Prize to DARPA for designing the Internet. And
> >>>> they've made so many other excellent contributions to peace, like
> >>>> unmanned bombers and anti-missile lasers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Seriously, the only reason I can think of that the committee would
> >>>> choose "the internet" as a recipient is if they wanted to make an even
> >>>> more bizarre choice than last year.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Tim Starling
> >>>>
> >>> I'm actually not sure how unmanned bombers are not a tool for peace
> given
> >>> our current situation. As Obama noted very eloquently in his Nobel
> >>> acceptance speech even though we may dream of world peace it is not yet
> a
> >>> reality. The reality is that we have rogue regimes, unstable
> >>>
> >> international
> >>
> >>> relationships, religious wars, insane people who manage to get elected
> as
> >>> POTUS, etc...
> >>>
> >> Can we discuss something else, rather than having the list get
> >> sidetracked into geopolitical debates that aren't at all useful to the
> >> work we do? Aside from fantasizing about a share of the prize money,
> >> even the original subject was not especially on-topic for discussion
> >> here. Thank you.
> >>
> >> --Michael Snow
> >>
> > Yes, hardly anything is relevant for discussion on this list anymore. It
> > happens either on internal WMF mailing lists or IRL.
> >
> It's not that those discussions wouldn't be relevant to have on this
> list, and periodically people try and encourage others to move them to a
> more public setting. It's that when this list continues to show a
> tendency for conversation to degenerate, as it just did, then it's quite
> hard to persuade people that they should want to have their discussions
> here.
>
> --Michael Snow
>

You believe that my reply to Tim is degenerate? That is offensive.

------------------------------

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