[Foundation-l] Copyrighted maps and Derived works from copyrighted sources.

[jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com]

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Kwan Ting Chan <ktc at ktchan.info> wrote:
> jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com wrote:
>>
>> Guys,
>> Lets get back to one point : terms of service.
>>
>> We are talking about copyright here the whole time, but the contract
>> agreement in the terms of service are much more binding, they override
>> your copyright.
>>
>> If the terms of service do not allow mass database extraction, WP is
>> violating that on a large scale.
>
> 1. Is there mass database extraction of any particular service? If so, who
> by? Editors have used multiple ways of coming up with these lat/long values;
> GPS location reader, Sat Nav, Google Maps / Earth, OS maps, maps by other
> company online and printed,

Well since WP does not have any source tag for locations, it will be
hard to tell.
Without proper attribution of the information sources, we can only
assume the worst.

If there was some tagging of source of the coordinates, it would be better.

There needs to be some citation on the source of the coordinates. Just
like images get deleted off of commons without any attribution, you
should delete locations and maps that are not cited properly.
Even the usage of the Haiti sat data requires attribution. It is an
international standard.


> 2. The contract is between the service provider (again say) Google, and the
> end user of that service, i.e. the person who access it and later input the
> value into WP. Nowhere did Wikimedia Foundation come to any agreement with
> Google. One can't violate a contract that never existed.
>
>> The online maps are provided to you under very strict rules and to
>> access them you must agree to them.
>> The whole idea of many map providers is that you can only view these
>> great maps using their software and their software keys.
>>
>> If wikipedia is condoning a mass import of data from such a source
>> that goes against that contract, how can you justify it? How can other
>> people trust the judgement of wikipedia on this issue?
>
> You are assuming there is 1) any violation of contract in the first place;
Well, it is my laypersons interpretation of the contract. Lets assume
it for one moment.

> 2) the wikipedia community is aware of it;

As I said,there are not many good sources for map data.
if you look at the instructions on how to collection points, you would
get the impression that it is just fine to follow those instructions.
WP has extensive instructions on how to use restricted maps for data
collection.

>3) said community is condoning it.
Well if you read the page on how to get coordinates there is more
information on how to get the data from these sources and very little
on warnings.

I can say that the OSM community is absolutely not condoning it, up to
the point that they say that we cannot use WP data.

>> What if we start to write articles about street and include all the
>> buildings and boring parts of the streets in the WP or some
>> subproject, where would it stop? What would protect a database of
>> streets against such a swarm of fact collectors?
>> mike
>
> If you're outside the EU, then not a lot. The EU has the concept of database
> right, but that does not exist in other part of the world. Wikipedia is
> operated under US federal and California (?) state laws, where mere
> collections of facts are considered unoriginal and unprotected.

I am living in Germany.. So count me out.
Are there no Wikipedia servers hosted in Europe?
That also means that if I were to start to use this data freely it
would open me up to potential litigation.
What type of freedom of knowledge is that if you can only use it in
one country?

As I said, you will have to come to terms that there are no real good
freely available sources of map data out there, and sticking your head
in the sand is just harming the OSM project.

If WP would come clean and call out to people to do some real mapping
work and help the OSM project then you would be producing truly free
knowledge about the world.

What I would like to see:
1. a stricter sourcing policy for the maps and point data, There
should be a strict citation policy for all geographic data. Ideally
the data and maps would come from OSM and adhere to OSM policy.
2. speedy deletion of unsourced / unattributed maps . I have already
marked the Albania map for improper attribution. I guess I can start
to do that with all the other maps as well.
3. better guidelines on collecting map data, there has to be some type
of warning about TOS violoations when you add in datapoints.
4. a harmonisation with the OSM policy and a common agreement.

Right now all we have is both sides (WP/OSM) not working together or
talking to each other on this issue. The result is that there is less
collaboration. Why dont we take this thread to the osm legal and stomp
it out until we reach an agreement?

thanks,

mike