[Foundation-l] Seeking clarification

Brian McNeil brian.mcneil at wikinewsie.org
Wed Jan 23 11:20:10 UTC 2008 

As Gerard tries to explain, a degree of overlap between two free projects
does not equate to competition. Or if it does it is of the friendly sort.

Wikiversity is - essentially - just a catchy name for the WMF's pet
education project - it isn't meant to be tertiary-level only. When you bring
in stable versions and things like simple English there are prospects to
build online courses into the project for younger readers. I've not looked
closely at Wikieducator, but it appears to target a subset of the community
that may use Wikiversity - namely the teachers themselves. For this group
there are four choices (a) Ignore Wikis, (b) Choose Wikieducator, (c) Choose
Wikiversity, or (d) Choose (b) and (c). Which choice is best for their
*students* is the criteria they should be applying, not something
ideological. Besides, for different subjects a different choice may be
appropriate. I would imagine with the wealth of good quality Wikipedia
articles on hard sciences Wikiversity would be the logical place to work on
that from.

What I would expect to be a difference is that Wikieducator will have more
material for printout and distribution - study sheets, tests, test
answers,... generally the sort of material you'd end up paying for or
writing yourself for a conventional classroom. Wikiversity has the freedom
to be a more self-starting project to work with. I discussed by email with
Cormac Lawler how Wikiversity and Wikinews could cooperate since the former
has a "Journalism school" set of pages. I think the best summary we came to
was that pre-Watergate journalism was an apprenticed trade, and that it
should perhaps return to that in the age of citizen journalism. I've not yet
figured out how to write the really compelling pitch to try Wikinews on WV's
journalism school, perhaps someone will get pointed our way, click with the
project, and write it for me.

Likewise for Wikiversity and Wikieducator cross-pollination between the
projects should happen. It doesn't matter one is WMF and one isn't, they're
both free (leaving aside Kaltura, I'll get to that). Wikieducator could be
providing course materials and directing people to Wikiversity to do tests
(Quiz extension) while referring people from Wikieducator to specific
versions (permalinks) of articles on WP for course reading.

Moving on, Kaltura offers Wikieducator a great new tool for educational
purposes - hence it being trialled there. In this I see WMF lending their
name to promote that collaboration and hint that "if it works we'd like
something similar". There are then all the caveats about freedom from patent
encumbrance that might prevent use on Wikipedia or Wikiversity, but an
independent and stable project - Wikieducator - which broadly has the same
goals has been vastly enhanced.

Apologies for length of ramblings, I'm trying to make the case that there
isn't a problem and - in the long term - this is in line with WMF ideals
even if it isn't happening on their servers.


Brian McNeil
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard
Meijssen
Sent: 22 January 2008 15:40
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Seeking clarification

Hoi,
It is exactly because Wikiversity does target students that makes
Wikieducator different.

What Wikieducator is about:
    * planning of education projects linked with the development of free
content;
    * development of free content on Wikieducator for e-learning;
    * work on building open education resources (OERs) on how to create
OERs.
    * networking on funding proposals developed as free content.*
*So my argument is good.

All WMF projects aim to provide information. They all do it in a slightly
different way. The notion that one project should not and can not compete
with another is false anyway. Both Wikipedia and Wikinews do news. Both
Wikibooks and Wikiversity work on educational material Of relevance is the
difference in emphasis. This is what makes projects valid in their own
right.

With the notion that projects cannot compete, you effectively convict
projects to stay in the same mold. When there are two groups with markedly
different insights, one of these has to give up their ideas and would not be
allowed to experiment with their notions of how things should be / can be
done. This is evil.

In my opinion, there should be room for experiments and if we find that a
new kid on the block does good. More power to him/her. The beneficiary of
such experiments are the people that matter; the people we are providing
information to.
Thanks,
     GerardM


On Jan 22, 2008 12:27 PM, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
wrote:

> Correct me if I am wrong. But does the front page of Wikiversity say
> that the project i for teachers students and researchers? If so, then
> your argument is false.
>
> No WMF project should, EVER, compete with one another. If we do, we may
> as well take the collaborative scheme, and throw it out of the window too.
>
> This "competition" goes against the WMF's mission.
>
> Jason Safoutin (DragonFire1024)
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:36:15 +0100
> > From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Seeking clarification
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> >       <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >       <41a006820801212236v70332058qdf7cf18df083a835 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Hoi,
> > In principle I would agree that the WMF could build all kinds of
> everything.
> > In practice the WMF has not been able to implement a project like Single
> > User Login in almost two year now I think it is. Practically it is
> either a
> > really dedicated and/or talented person that gets something organised or
> it
> > just does not happen.
> >
> > Also in the Open Source world it is a given that competing projects
> > invigorate each other because of their perceived competition. This may
> seem
> > rather Darwinistic but hey it seems to work for them so why not for us ?
> The
> > approach taken by Wikiversity and Wikieducator is markedly different.
> > Wikieducator is very much organised for and by people who are working in
> the
> > educational field while Wikiversity is not. These projects occupy
> different
> > niches, and therefore there is not so much competition after all.
> > Thanks,
> >    GerardM
> >
> > On Jan 22, 2008 6:42 AM, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Why should Wikiversity or Wikispecies or any other WMF project have to
> >> compete with another WMF project, with basically the same goals?
> >>
> >> I am all for free collaborative content, but not if it means WMF
> >> projects have to compete against one another. Would that not defy the
> >> meaning of collaborative? Why not take what WMF has already and make it
> >> better. We know they have the capabilities to make new things like a
> >> collaborative video program...so why not?
> >>
> >> Point is the projects are all supposed to be part of a community of
> >> collaborators. We are supposed to be part of a foundation that supports
> >> that. Not driving the communities apart.
> >>
> >> Jason Safoutin
> >>
> >>> I understood Erik was asked to join their advisory board since he was
> >>> a Board of Trustees at WMF and both organizations were largely in a
> >>> same mind (free content for educational purpose). I think Erik said
> >>> something at the announcement of his appointment to Deputy ED  but not
> >>> dig the archive right now (the network is a bit slow for me now).
> >>>
> >>> Btw I have no reason for making a panic -- sorry but it was my first
> >>> impression in this thread, so sorry if I just misunderstood your
> >>> reaction --- even if WikiEducator was a competitor of Wikiversity. Is
> >>> our world so small not as to allow two or more online educational
> >>> projects mainly for adult or in an advanced level? In real life we
> >>> have several high educational institutions. In several layers they
> >>> compete each others but still there are also collaborations in many
> >>> levels: both officially and informally they share lectures, books and
> >>> other educational resources and do research jointly etc. Can it be
> >>> this case or is there no such room for online projects at all?
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 22, 2008 10:21 AM, Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> For a conflict of interest, interests must conflict. How do the
> >>>> interests of Wikimedia and WikiEducator conflict? That isn't clear to
> >>>> me. The goal is the same - the proliferation of easily accessible
> >>>> knowledge. Ideally, they could exchange content so that neither has
> >>>> anything the other lacks (depending on licenses, which I don't know
> >>>> the details of).  FWIW, Erik is the deputy executive director.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nathan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jan 21, 2008 8:12 PM, Jason Safoutin <
> jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> >>>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> If I have to be the first to say it, I will. I know some of these
> >>>>>
> >> links
> >>
> >>>>> have been passed around here before, but for reference I will ad
> them,
> >>>>> and then some.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It has become clear to me, at least a few things anyway. One bing
> that
> >>>>> there is clearly a conflict of interest on Erik Moeller's part. He
> is
> >>>>> currently on the advisory board for Wikieducator:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     * http://www.wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Advisory_Board
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "/WikiEducator's Interim International Advisory Board was assembled
> by
> >>>>> project founder Wayne Mackintosh to serve as a means of involving
> the
> >>>>> community until the project has grown large enough to elect a Board
> >>>>> through democratic means. Once 2,500 users have joined the wiki,
> >>>>> elections will be held to select a successor Board./", says the
> >>>>>
> >> website.
> >>
> >>>>> Not only that, but Kultra has some involvement with Wikieducator,
> and
> >>>>>
> >> if
> >>
> >>>>> I am not mistaken Wikieducator is slated to be on WMF servers:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     * _ Kaltura Collaborative Video Editing Extension Enabled:_
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
>
http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator/browse_thread/thread/345c056f830
4e25c
> >>
> >>>>> The way I see it, Wikieducator is the same thing that Wikiversity
> is.
> >>>>> Wikieducator is not to compete with Wikiversity, it is a means to
> IMO
> >>>>> eventually replace it. Don't believe me?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wikieducator:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     * *planning* of education projects linked with the development
> of
> >>>>>       free content <http://freedomdefined.org/Definition>;
> >>>>>     * *development* of free content on Wikieducator
> >>>>>       <http://www.wikieducator.org/Content> for e-learning;
> >>>>>     * work on building *open education resources* (OERs) on *how* to
> >>>>>       create OERs.
> >>>>>     * networking on *funding proposals
> >>>>>       <http://www.wikieducator.org/Metawikieducator>* developed as
> >>>>>
> >> free
> >>
> >>>>>       content.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wikiversity: /*Wikiversity* is a community for the creation of
> >>>>>
> >> learning
> >>
> >>>>> activities and development of free learning materials. Students and
> >>>>> teachers
> >>>>> <http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Wikiversity_teachers>
> are
> >>>>> invited to join the project as collaborators in teaching, learning,
> >>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>> research. Wikiversity strives to be an open and vibrant community
> >>>>>
> >> where
> >>
> >>>>> you can explore and learn about your personal interests. Wikiversity
> >>>>> hosts and develops free learning materials for all age groups.
> Please
> >>>>> participate and help build collaborative learning projects and
> >>>>> communities; at Wikiversity we learn by doing
> >>>>> <http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Education/Wikiversity_model>,
> >>>>>
> >> we
> >>
> >>>>> learn by editing./
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So...what is different about the two? Nothing...other than a few
> more
> >>>>> bells and whistles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We all heard about the wonderful amazing and quite eye catiching,
> The
> >>>>> Encyclopedia Of Life - A collaborative encyclopedia to contain the
> >>>>> entire earth's species....I thought that's what Wikispecies is? Not
> to
> >>>>> mention that Erik is on their Institutional Council, which he also
> >>>>> represents the Wikimedia Foundation. Again not another competition,
> >>>>>
> >> but
> >>
> >>>>> if you have been to their website, you will see what I mean about
> >>>>> "replacement".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     * http://www.eol.org/home.html
> >>>>>     * http://blog.valuewiki.com/2007/05/09/encyclopedia-of-life/
> >>>>>     * http://www.eol.org/partners.html#p3
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So let cut to the chase. What is going on in WMF? Why is the
> Executive
> >>>>> Director involved with projects that are clearly designed to either
> >>>>> replace or out do WMF projects? Why is the WMF involved at all? And
> >>>>>
> >> why,
> >>
> >>>>> is the Board of Trustees, the group the communities elected, not
> >>>>>
> >> saying
> >>
> >>>>> anything? Whats going on and who is making these decisions?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In all respects, we have to right to know at least some things. As
> it
> >>>>> stands, Kaltura is directly endorsing the WMF on its front page:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.kaltura.com/devwiki/index.php/Main_Page
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "/As recently announced
> >>>>> <
> >>>>>
> >>
>
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Invites_Users_to_Take_Part_in_
Open%2C_Collaborative_Video_Experiment
> >>
> >>> ,
> >>>
> >>>>> the Wikimedia Foundation and Kaltura have begun a process aimed at
> >>>>> bringing rich-media collaboration to Wikipedia and other wiki
> >>>>>
> >> websites.
> >>
> >>>>> The vision of this project is to enable the Wikipedia community to
> >>>>> further enhance and enrich Wikipedia articles with rich-media
> >>>>>
> >> content./"
> >>
> >>>>> They mention Wikipedia three times in just the first paragraph...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So who is in charge now????????????
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jason Safoutin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> foundation-l mailing list
> >>>>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> foundation-l mailing list
> >>>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> > End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 154
> > *********************************************
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

More information about the foundation-l mailing list