[Foundation-l] Fwd: Localisation of MediaWiki

Wed Jan 16 08:45:57 UTC 2008

Hoi Gerard,

I am absolutely fine with what you write, and I think making "eligible" an
official policy is a good thing since it states the situation more
clearly. (Actually, I thought it is already an official policy). If the
project is "eligible" it does not mean that it is "approved" by any means,
conditionally or not.

I would not agree that Karelian proposal combines several languages, and
there is an extensive disussion at the point at the discussion page, but
this is clearly not a topic for the foundation-l.

Cheers
Yaroslav

> Hoi,
> What we have been doing is first getting the easy stuff out of the way.
> Easy
> in this means it is just ticking the requirements for "eligible". For your
> information this change of the name for the stage was introduced to give a
> better understanding of what this phase means. It is now being considered
> and at the end of the week it is likely to be the official label.
>
> More and more what is left are the projects with technical or other
> issues.
> We have issues with Karelian because in the project proposal it says that
> you want to combine with other languages. This is currently something we
> are
> not happy with and the only route we see is for something like
> MultiLingual
> MediaWiki to be used. This software is still being developed and it is not
> ready for the big time. Berto has recently loaded it on one of his servers
> and is looking at it and is in contact with Charles, the developer on
> this.
>
> Now a project being in discussion is better then us saying no. There are
> however a substantial grouping that we will have not said no to. This is
> what we are working on.. Please appreciate that we are volunteers. We are
> getting better tooling, we are becoming more helpful in pointing out our
> requirements but things are getting done slowly. When we say no, we want
> to
> have good arguments and it sometimes takes time to get consensus about
> this.
> NB The language committee is quite an extended group of people in many
> timezones.
>
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On Jan 16, 2008 8:49 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod at mccme.ru> wrote:
>
>> I think now (for a week or so already) instead of "conditionally
>> approved"
>> they use the term "eligible", which in my opinion better states what has
>> been done. The procedure of deeming "eligible" takes less than a day at
>> this stage. (Though apparently there are some exceptions with discussion
>> taken over months, like Karelian Wp).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > For the record the time from a proposed *final* approval to publishing
>> the
>> > approval is at least two weeks. The fact that Japanese Wikiveristy
>> > show as *conditionally
>> > approved* is only demonstrating the fact that there are no obstacles
>> from
>> > finally approving a project. At this stage we do not look at all at
>> the
>> > localisation.
>> >
>> > A good example is Sranan Tongo. They have been conditionally approved
>> and
>> > are working hard and doing a great job on their localisation. At the
>> time
>> > of
>> > final approval when we consider eligibility for final approval we look
>> at
>> > the localisation for real.
>> > Thanks,
>> >      GerardM
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jan 15, 2008 2:17 PM, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Jan 15, 2008 9:09 PM, Jerome Banal < jerome.banal at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> > I certainly don't want to sit between you guys but just want to
>> >> highlight
>> >> > something that I think I understood (but might be wrong) from
>> Gerard's
>> >> > writings and that you may have missed:
>> >> >
>> >> > It seems to me that the Greek project has been under examination
>> >> before
>> >> the
>> >> > change in policy that creates this new stronger requirement,
>> whereas
>> >> the
>> >> > Japanese has been examined after this change.
>> >>
>> >> [show] Wikiversity Greek        3  Approved     10-Jan-2008
>> >> [show] Wikiversity Japanese 2   2  Verified as eligible
>> >> 19-Dec-2007
>> >>
>> >> And it was January 5 that GerardM told Japanese Wikiversity to
>> >> localize all files.
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages%2FWikiversity_Japanese_2&diff=819899&oldid=799361
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am afraid your chronology is anachronistic and not based on the
>> fact.
>> >>
>> >> > It's not that the two projects are considered differently under the
>> >> same
>> >> > rules, it is that they are considered with different rules because
>> the
>> >> rules
>> >> > have changed (for every project that has not been examined yet,
>> >> including
>> >> > any additional Greek project that may come after that one) between
>> the
>> >> two
>> >> > requests.
>> >>
>> >> > Now, I might be wrong; This is not very well mentioned in Gerard's
>> >> mails
>> >> but
>> >> > I think it is hinted.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not taking any position for or against that change in rule :-)
>> >> >
>> >> > Kind regards,
>> >> > Jerome
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2008/1/15, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Jan 15, 2008 8:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen
>> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > > Hoi,
>> >> > > > I tried to point out to you personally how the policy is
>> >> consistent
>> >> in
>> >> > > time.
>> >> > > > I also explained why the policy is reasonable. As I have said
>> the
>> >> same
>> >> > > > things now several times, I do not want to repeat the things
>> >> publicly
>> >> > > again
>> >> > > > unless there is a new point to clarify.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It is your wishes not mine. And if you think it is enough to
>> >> persuade
>> >> > > me to cover your inequity for all Japanese people involved into
>> >> > > Wiversity sorry I disagree.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > There is no reason to hide it in a cupboard. And I esteem
>> >> transparency.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > And if there is any new point - you still haven't provide why
>> >> inequity
>> >>
>> >> > > between Greeks and Japanese justified.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Because of my respect to you I have
>> >> > > > endeavoured to word things differently and more personally. I
>> do
>> >> not
>> >> do
>> >> > > that
>> >> > > > for many others. :)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > 1. I don't have an interest to discuss with you as individual. I
>> ask
>> >> > > Langcom for their opinion as Wikimedia Committee. Not you
>> >> individual.
>> >> > > Hence your wish for private conversation is irrelevant.
>> >> > > 2. As a committee member, I rather wish you esteem the all
>> >> Wikiversity
>> >> > > people, not your preferring individuals. And as a committee
>> member
>> >> you
>> >>
>> >> > > should do, imo.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > PS my name is Gerard not Gerald :)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Sorry, it is hard for native Japanese speaker to distinguish
>> them.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > >     Gerard
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On Jan 15, 2008 11:45 AM, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Back to foundation-l.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Gerald, I have no idea why you mailed me privately and in
>> that
>> >> mail
>> >> > > > > you didn't respond any of my specific questions.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > I think I tried to ask politely LangCom for the inconsistency
>> in
>> >> > > > > GeraldM's messages and ask GeraldM himself to clarify what is
>> >> his
>> >> > > > > standpoint?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > In this context what means a privately sent mail?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > In both points a reasonable public clear response in an
>> >> appropriate
>> >> > > > > manner will be appreciated.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 6:55 PM, Gerard Meijssen
>> >> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > Hoi,
>> >> > > > > > The policy was recently changed. All the languages that
>> were
>> >> at
>> >> that
>> >> > > > time
>> >> > > > > > approved or were in the process of being approved do not
>> have
>> >> to
>> >>
>> >> > > comply
>> >> > > > with
>> >> > > > > > the new standard. The process of being approved starts when
>> a
>> >> member
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > > > langcom asks other members of the langcom for approval for
>> a
>> >> > > project.
>> >> > > > This
>> >> > > > > > is often communicated privately with people representing
>> the
>> >> new
>> >> > > > project.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > We need full localisation for all languages. For Greek, for
>> >> Japanese
>> >> > > ...
>> >> > > > > > without full localisation important messages will not be
>> >> available
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > > > > consequently when new software is introduced there will be
>> a
>> >> lot
>> >> of
>> >> > > > > > uncertainty. The messages for Single User Logon are in an
>> >> exension.
>> >> > > They
>> >> > > > are
>> >> > > > > > extremely relevant when SUL goes life. We do not require
>> any
>> >> > > extension
>> >> > > > > > messages for a first project in a language because we trust
>> >> the
>> >> > > > community to
>> >> > > > > > do well and translate them in BetaWIki. Often these
>> messages
>> >> are
>> >>
>> >> > > > translated
>> >> > > > > > in the local project.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > With a second project in a language it becomes even more
>> >> important
>> >> > > that
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > > > localisation is done centrally and this is the reason for
>> the
>> >> new
>> >> > > > > > requirement. It is hard work to maintain the localisation.
>> >> When
>> >> the
>> >> > > > > > localisation is only done in the biggest project. The
>> smaller
>> >> > > projects
>> >> > > > lose
>> >> > > > > > out.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > I hope you will appreciate that this policy only aims to
>> >> improve
>> >> the
>> >> > > > > > localisation in all languages for us all. If anything the
>> >> policy
>> >> and
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > > > hard work at BetaWiki have shown to have a good effect.
>> Things
>> >> have
>> >> > > > already
>> >> > > > > > improved quite substantially over the last few months.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > > > >      Gerard
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > > > >     Gerard
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 10:40 AM, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 4:26 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
>> >> > > gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
>> >> > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > Hoi,
>> >> > > > > > > > Several members of the language committee are extremely
>> >> unhappy
>> >> > > with
>> >> > > > > > > > Pathoschild's sorry show of doing this on his own
>> accord.
>> >> They
>> >> > > have
>> >> > > > > > > > indicated that they will block final approval for any
>> >> project by
>> >> > > > going
>> >> > > > > > back
>> >> > > > > > > > on this necessary part of the policy.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Unless one other member of Langcom gives their
>> >> understanding,
>> >> I
>> >> > > think
>> >> > > > > > > it wise not to comment to this part of your statement.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > And I take it strangely you speak without clarification
>> as
>> >> whom
>> >> > > you
>> >> > > > > > > are talking. I don't want an opinion of certain
>> individual
>> >> on
>> >> his
>> >> > > > > > > individual basis. I asked opinion of Langcom.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Do you speak here on behalf of Langcom based on
>> consensus?
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Again, there are two parts to the policy.
>> >> > > > > > > > * When a language is starting it only needs to do the
>> most
>> >> used
>> >> > > > messages
>> >> > > > > > of
>> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki. This provides basic support for a language.
>> >> > > > > > > > * When a project request is a subsequent project for a
>> >> language,
>> >> > > all
>> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki messages and the messages of the extension
>> used
>> >> by
>> >> the
>> >> > > WMF
>> >> > > > are
>> >> > > > > > > > required.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > [snip]
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > It is exactly for languages that use a different script
>> >> that
>> >> it
>> >> > > is
>> >> > > > vital
>> >> > > > > > > > that the localisation is done completely. For these
>> >> languages
>> >> > > there
>> >> > > > is
>> >> > > > > > no
>> >> > > > > > > > chance that the English word is the same or similar.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Your argument here again become pointless. "A different
>> >> script" is
>> >> > > > > > > unclear and a-certain-but-not-clear-language-centric.
>> Even
>> >> if
>> >> I
>> >> > > assume
>> >> > > > > > > you wanted to mean "a different language from MediaWiki
>> >> default =
>> >> > > > > > > latin script", it is still pointless and give no insight
>> of
>> >> > > > > > > differences Langcom set between Greek (Greek script, not
>> >> latin)
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > > > > > Japanese (Kana and Kanji). And I would politely add Greek
>> is
>> >> not
>> >> > > > > > > English word.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Shortly your argument doesn't provide any good reason for
>> >> your
>> >> > > favor
>> >> > > > > > > to Greek project.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki is an integral part of how we provide our
>> >> information.
>> >> > > It
>> >> > > > > > needs as
>> >> > > > > > > > much tender loving care as we give to our content.
>> >> MediaWiki
>> >>
>> >> > > > receives a
>> >> > > > > > lot
>> >> > > > > > > > of tender loving care from the developers. We can show
>> our
>> >> > > > appreciation
>> >> > > > > > by
>> >> > > > > > > > making sure that their software is properly understood
>> and
>> >> > > > appreciated
>> >> > > > > > by
>> >> > > > > > > > all its users not only for the people that know English
>> >> and
>> >> get
>> >> > > > > > everything
>> >> > > > > > > > by default.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Again I should ask you: who are we? Specially if
>> Pathoschild
>> >> > > pointed
>> >> > > > > > > out flows in your wording?
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > > > > > >     GerardM
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 12:08 AM, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
>> >> > > > > > <pathoschild at gmail.com >
>> >> > > > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > Aphaia, I'm sorry; I looked at the localization for
>> >> Japanese,
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > > it
>> >> > > > > > > > > seems that this problem is caused by a change that
>> >> happened a
>> >> > > few
>> >> > > > days
>> >> > > > > > > > > ago in the requirements. I've reverted them and
>> brought
>> >> them
>> >> > > up
>> >> > > > for
>> >> > > > > > > > > subcommittee discussion again (I hadn't commented on
>> >> them,
>> >> > > because
>> >> > > > it
>> >> > > > > > > > > didn't seem from the proposal that they'd make much
>> >> > > difference).
>> >> > > > I'll
>> >> > > > > > > > > keep you updated off-list.
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > Yaroslav, as far as I know (I don't participate on
>> that
>> >> page)
>> >> > > > those
>> >> > > > > > > > > numbers are only there to give a general idea of the
>> >> > > discussion.
>> >> > > > Since
>> >> > > > > > > > > they're manually updated, they're probably outdated
>> most
>> >> of
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > time.
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > --
>> >> > > > > > > > > Yours cordially,
>> >> > > > > > > > > Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > > > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
>> >> > > > > > > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
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>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > --
>> >> > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
>> >> > > > > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
>> >> > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
>> >> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
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>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > --
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > KIZU Naoko
>> >> > > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
>> >> > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
>> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
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>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > KIZU Naoko
>> >> > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
>> >> > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> KIZU Naoko
>> >> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
>> >> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>> >>
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