[Foundation-l] Fwd: Localisation of MediaWiki

Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
Tue Jan 15 12:21:16 UTC 2008 

Hoi,
Indeed.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Jan 15, 2008 1:09 PM, Jerome Banal <jerome.banal at gmail.com> wrote:

> I certainly don't want to sit between you guys but just want to highlight
> something that I think I understood (but might be wrong) from Gerard's
> writings and that you may have missed:
>
> It seems to me that the Greek project has been under examination before
> the
> change in policy that creates this new stronger requirement, whereas the
> Japanese has been examined after this change.
> It's not that the two projects are considered differently under the same
> rules, it is that they are considered with different rules because the
> rules
> have changed (for every project that has not been examined yet, including
> any additional Greek project that may come after that one) between the two
> requests.
>
>
> Now, I might be wrong; This is not very well mentioned in Gerard's mails
> but
> I think it is hinted.
>
> Not taking any position for or against that change in rule :-)
>
> Kind regards,
> Jerome
>
>
>
> 2008/1/15, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com>:
> >
> > On Jan 15, 2008 8:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hoi,
> > > I tried to point out to you personally how the policy is consistent in
> > time.
> > > I also explained why the policy is reasonable. As I have said the same
> > > things now several times, I do not want to repeat the things publicly
> > again
> > > unless there is a new point to clarify.
> >
> > It is your wishes not mine. And if you think it is enough to persuade
> > me to cover your inequity for all Japanese people involved into
> > Wiversity sorry I disagree.
> >
> > There is no reason to hide it in a cupboard. And I esteem transparency.
> >
> > And if there is any new point - you still haven't provide why inequity
> > between Greeks and Japanese justified.
> >
> > > Because of my respect to you I have
> > > endeavoured to word things differently and more personally. I do not
> do
> > that
> > > for many others. :)
> >
> > 1. I don't have an interest to discuss with you as individual. I ask
> > Langcom for their opinion as Wikimedia Committee. Not you individual.
> > Hence your wish for private conversation is irrelevant.
> > 2. As a committee member, I rather wish you esteem the all Wikiversity
> > people, not your preferring individuals. And as a committee member you
> > should do, imo.
> >
> > > PS my name is Gerard not Gerald :)
> >
> > Sorry, it is hard for native Japanese speaker to distinguish  them.
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > >     Gerard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 15, 2008 11:45 AM, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Back to foundation-l.
> > > >
> > > > Gerald, I have no idea why you mailed me privately and in that mail
> > > > you didn't respond any of my specific questions.
> > > >
> > > > I think I tried to ask politely LangCom for the inconsistency in
> > > > GeraldM's messages and ask GeraldM himself to clarify what is his
> > > > standpoint?
> > > >
> > > > In this context what means a privately sent mail?
> > > >
> > > > In both points a reasonable public clear response in an appropriate
> > > > manner will be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 15, 2008 6:55 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > The policy was recently changed. All the languages that were at
> that
> > > time
> > > > > approved or were in the process of being approved do not have to
> > comply
> > > with
> > > > > the new standard. The process of being approved starts when a
> member
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > langcom asks other members of the langcom for approval for a
> > project.
> > > This
> > > > > is often communicated privately with people representing the new
> > > project.
> > > > >
> > > > > We need full localisation for all languages. For Greek, for
> Japanese
> > ...
> > > > > without full localisation important messages will not be available
> > and
> > > > > consequently when new software is introduced there will be a lot
> of
> > > > > uncertainty. The messages for Single User Logon are in an
> exension.
> > They
> > > are
> > > > > extremely relevant when SUL goes life. We do not require any
> > extension
> > > > > messages for a first project in a language because we trust the
> > > community to
> > > > > do well and translate them in BetaWIki. Often these messages are
> > > translated
> > > > > in the local project.
> > > > >
> > > > > With a second project in a language it becomes even more important
> > that
> > > the
> > > > > localisation is done centrally and this is the reason for the new
> > > > > requirement. It is hard work to maintain the localisation. When
> the
> > > > > localisation is only done in the biggest project. The smaller
> > projects
> > > lose
> > > > > out.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope you will appreciate that this policy only aims to improve
> the
> > > > > localisation in all languages for us all. If anything the policy
> and
> > the
> > > > > hard work at BetaWiki have shown to have a good effect. Things
> have
> > > already
> > > > > improved quite substantially over the last few months.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >      Gerard
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >     Gerard
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 10:40 AM, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 4:26 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > Several members of the language committee are extremely
> unhappy
> > with
> > > > > > > Pathoschild's sorry show of doing this on his own accord. They
> > have
> > > > > > > indicated that they will block final approval for any project
> by
> > > going
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > on this necessary part of the policy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unless one other member of Langcom gives their understanding, I
> > think
> > > > > > it wise not to comment to this part of your statement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I take it strangely you speak without clarification as whom
> > you
> > > > > > are talking. I don't want an opinion of certain individual on
> his
> > > > > > individual basis. I asked opinion of Langcom.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you speak here on behalf of Langcom based on consensus?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, there are two parts to the policy.
> > > > > > > * When a language is starting it only needs to do the most
> used
> > > messages
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > MediaWiki. This provides basic support for a language.
> > > > > > > * When a project request is a subsequent project for a
> language,
> > all
> > > > > > > MediaWiki messages and the messages of the extension used by
> the
> > WMF
> > > are
> > > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is exactly for languages that use a different script that
> it
> > is
> > > vital
> > > > > > > that the localisation is done completely. For these languages
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > chance that the English word is the same or similar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your argument here again become pointless. "A different script"
> is
> > > > > > unclear and a-certain-but-not-clear-language-centric. Even if I
> > assume
> > > > > > you wanted to mean "a different language from MediaWiki default
> =
> > > > > > latin script", it is still pointless and give no insight of
> > > > > > differences Langcom set between Greek (Greek script, not latin)
> > and
> > > > > > Japanese (Kana and Kanji). And I would politely add Greek is not
> > > > > > English word.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shortly your argument doesn't provide any good reason for your
> > favor
> > > > > > to Greek project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > MediaWiki is an integral part of how we provide our
> information.
> > It
> > > > > needs as
> > > > > > > much tender loving care as we give to our content. MediaWiki
> > > receives a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > > of tender loving care from the developers. We can show our
> > > appreciation
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > making sure that their software is properly understood and
> > > appreciated
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > all its users not only for the people that know English and
> get
> > > > > everything
> > > > > > > by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I should ask you: who are we? Specially if Pathoschild
> > pointed
> > > > > > out flows in your wording?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >     GerardM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 12:08 AM, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
> > > > > <pathoschild at gmail.com >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Aphaia, I'm sorry; I looked at the localization for
> Japanese,
> > and
> > > it
> > > > > > > > seems that this problem is caused by a change that happened
> a
> > few
> > > days
> > > > > > > > ago in the requirements. I've reverted them and brought them
> > up
> > > for
> > > > > > > > subcommittee discussion again (I hadn't commented on them,
> > because
> > > it
> > > > > > > > didn't seem from the proposal that they'd make much
> > difference).
> > > I'll
> > > > > > > > keep you updated off-list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yaroslav, as far as I know (I don't participate on that
> page)
> > > those
> > > > > > > > numbers are only there to give a general idea of the
> > discussion.
> > > Since
> > > > > > > > they're manually updated, they're probably outdated most of
> > the
> > > time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Yours cordially,
> > > > > > > > Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> > > > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> > > > > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> > > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > KIZU Naoko
> > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> > > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> > > >
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> > --
> > KIZU Naoko
> > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >
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