[Foundation-l] Reply to Mark
ben.louis.yates at gmail.com
Fri Feb 29 09:24:52 UTC 2008
Also, you guys (I mean the foundation members) have been handling all
this pretty badly. It should have been obvious from the moment
alexandria was chosen and a huge row erupted over gay safety in egypt
that this was an issue that would need continuing attention -- as in,
you need to honestly understand people's concerns* and look for
practical solutions. A straightforward knowledge base mapping out
egyptian society, religion, politics and culture would be a good place
Seriously. Do you not understand why swatjester's pissed off? There
are protesters in s. egypt decrying "the jews". If we had a better
understanding of egyptian culture, someone could say to him "look,
those protesters are at a conservative university, they don't
represent broader egyptian society". (Or, conversely, maybe they do.
I don't know because nobody's researching.) There's a major vacuum
here that needs to be filled with knowledge and advice. Basically,
pull your socks up, get to work, and stop worrying about the way
threads play out on a bloody mailing list. This is a problem you have
to fix with real actions, not debate.
Here's a recent in depth article about youth culture and islam in
It contains about 100 times more light than this discussion, and
everyone should read it.
* As a semi-aspie, I do badly at conferences for other reasons and
won't be going -- so I don't share any /practical/ concerns. But I'm
also bi and ethnically jewish
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 4:09 AM, Ben Yates <ben.louis.yates at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think you misread the "personally discriminated" line -- it seemed
> like florence was using that wording to specifically acknowledge the
> extent of the problem, not to diminish it.
> That said, it seems pretty clear that the location was sort of agreed
> on backroom-style because of the symbolism of alexandria's library.
> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:46 AM, Claudio Mastroianni
> <gattonero at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Il giorno 29/feb/08, alle ore 08:30, phoebe ayers ha scritto:
> > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> This thread should probably have a more appropriate title.
> > >>
> > >> As others have eloquently said, Wikimedia is about free - as in
> > >> freedom. The
> > >> choice of where to meet, as participants in Wikimedia projects,
> > >> should
> > >> without doubt take this principle into account.
> > >
> > > It should probably be pointed out just one more time -- even if it is
> > > exceedingly obvious -- that our Egyptian colleagues are participants
> > > in our community as well. And to my knowledge, they have not yet been
> > > able to attend a Wikimania, due to visa issues with the countries
> > > involved where we have held the conference in the past. Believe me, it
> > > wasn't through lack of trying, all three years.
> > Let me understand: we - gays, lesbians, women "with immoral
> > behaviours" should pay the fee for something YOU - the Board, the
> > Wikimania Committee, the Whatever - made in the past?
> > Who choose Taipei last years? You knew there would have been Visa
> > problems.
> > It's not our fault.
> > > I can say that this conference choice was not made for political
> > > reasons or as a political statement; that much should be clear.
> > Oh, come on. Don't try to fool us (again). This choice has obviously
> > some political reasons too, just like Taipei last year ("Freedom in
> > place where freedom doesn't exist").
> > > I also
> > > sincerely hope that anyone who can't attend this year -- whether it's
> > > because Egypt is too far, because they don't have enough money,
> > > because they fear for their safety traveling, or any other reason --
> > > will be able to join the conference in future years in other places,
> > > because Wikimania is a truly amazing event.
> > Again: whatever if you're gay/lesbian/woman/whatever, just don't come.
> > And thanks for the contributions,cheers.
> > > I am personally very sorry that people are upset over the location
> > > choice and feel personally discriminated against because of it.
> > What? "Personally discriminated"?
> > That's offensive: trying to "invert" the problem, accusing the
> > complainers.
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> Ben Yates
> Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com
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