[Foundation-l] foundation-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8

Mon Dec 1 22:26:07 UTC 2008

There are 732 editable wikis on Wikimedia and nearly all of them are
active in some way. Just a year ago, these wikis were getting hit by
loads of spambots and malbots and barely any community to fight them,
but since then we have seen changes in smaller wikis. Apart from maybe
15-20 wikis, I can safely say that most wikis are active and as Jimbo
mentioned somewhere, it will be good to learn another language as your
second tongue, preferably those that are spoken a lot more.We spend so
much time on these language wikipedias, we should atleast try to learn
something from it :)

On 12/2/08, foundation-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
>    2. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Fajro)
>    3. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
>    4. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
>    5. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Pedro Sanchez)
>    6. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Gerard Meijssen)
>    7. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
>    8. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (geni)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:44:25 +0100
> From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<23e544110812011144x3701732ew17b253f88d27c599 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
> people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
> sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well - and
> thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
> with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>
> They may of course also learn the not so pleasant fact of reality that
> native English speakers unfortunately sometimes come across as a rather
> arrogant lot (an attitude also unfortunately often also adapted by
> dutch/scandinavians etc who often are more comfortable using English than
> other language groups - I've been arrogant myself at times)
>
> Finn Rindahl (mainly nowiki&commons)
>
> 2008/12/1 Michael Finney <finney.md at gmail.com>
>
>> Jimbo:
>> Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
>> and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
>> disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
>> my
>> confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Geni wrote:
>> > >>> "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage
>> > >>> people around the world " first line of the mission statement. By
>> > >>> actively promoting minority languages you lock more people into them
>> > >>> which is not consistent with trying to empower them.
>> >
>> > I wrote:
>> > >> I do not share geni's views at all.
>> >
>> > Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> > > It doesn't seem that anyone does...
>> >
>> >
>> > I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
>> > people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
>> > local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
>> >
>> > In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
>> > choice of a second language.  In other parts of the world (Francophone
>> > Africa for example), French is an excellent choice.  Chinese might be
>> > good for some people.  Russian for others.  Hindi for others.  There are
>> > many variables.
>> >
>> > And I hope that Wikipedia is helpful to people both in learning about
>> > the facts of reality (usually most comfortably done in your mother
>> > tongue) and in learning another language.  I don't see these goals as
>> > being in competition at all, but rather mutually reinforcing.
>> >
>> > --Jimbo
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:45:07 -0200
> From: Fajro <faigos at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<78eaa86e0812011145q59c3589ct50c26c3ea013b9aa at mail.gmail.com>
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>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia-inc.com> wrote:
>
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> It doesn't seem that anyone does...
>>
>>
>> I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
>> people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
>> local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
>>
>> In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
>> choice of a second language.  In other parts of the world (Francophone
>> Africa for example), French is an excellent choice.  Chinese might be
>> good for some people.  Russian for others.  Hindi for others.  There are
>> many variables.
>
> Don't forget Esperanto.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Michael Finney <finney.md at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jimbo:
>> Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
>> and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
>> disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
>> my
>> confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
>
> Some of those comments was openly promoting ethnocide and linguistic
> discrimination and aparently nobody noticed it.
>
> I knew that wikimedia was a little anglocentric, but this is too much.
>
> --
> ? ?ajro ?
> IM: fajro at jabber.org
> Lernu! - http://www.lernu.net
> Wikimedia Argentina - http://www.wikimedia.org.ar
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:13 +0000
> From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a4359dff0812011148p5621873yf7d84dfc9a26c7a9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>> Don't forget Esperanto.
>
> Since when has Esperanto been a global language? It was a failed
> attempt at creating one, that's all. There is very little point in
> anyone learning it except for the fun of it (if you enjoy that sort of
> thing).
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:49 +0000
> From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a4359dff0812011148l2bc27619r6b5d999e292011a0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2008/12/1 Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki at gmail.com>:
>> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here.
>
> I think you mean "echo" - to repeat what he said.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:51:35 -0600
> From: "Pedro Sanchez" <pdsanchez at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<9ac45b70812011151r69e71ff1u774702570c5fcad at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
>> people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
>> sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
>> and
>> thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
>> with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>
> An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
> alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:53:23 +0100
> From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<41a006820812011153k5071e06x13c67c5e4012e849 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hoi,
> When usability improvements are to be implemented, it will change the
> dynamics of a project. It is easy to argue why the smaller projects need
> more content and more contributors. It is also easy to argue the same for
> the bigger and biggest projects. When a skin becomes available with a BIG
> button saying "Create new article", there will be loud voices explaining why
> it is a bad idea. Arguments that make sense up to a point.
>
> It is important to start thinking in terms of: when it becomes easier to
> contribute to a MediaWiki project, what are the implications. I am of the
> opinion that this will be on balance beneficial. But that is just me.
>
> I have not been addressing the board. I am grateful if the board takes an
> interest but I would prefer it when the WMF organisation takes up the baton.
> At most and at best the board can give usability more of a priority, but I
> would not be surprised if the organisation is ready to give usability more
> priority without Board involvement. The timing would not be that bad as the
> new developers are getting experienced and I expect that most of the work
> associated with the fund raiser is done.
>
> If you are a developer, I would LOVE you to have a look at the code. I would
> love to see proposals for a skin that does include a "CreatePage" button. I
> would love you to fix the bugs that have been identified by MinuteElectron.
> I am sure that there is enough that you can do to make usability an issue
> that we are now starting to address.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> 2008/12/1 Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com>
>
>> Thanks for that, Gerard. In other terms I suppose my question would be
>> this:
>> You've identified a problem (usability, particularly in languages with the
>> smallest or least technologically wealthy communities) and a partial
>> solution (usability extensions developed by UNICEF). Your post, though,
>> had
>> the tone of hoping that readers would offer assistance of some sort - so
>> what assistance would you like? Was your post aimed primarily at the
>> Board,
>> or is there something that other people could be doing as well?
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen
>> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > The software has been tested but not all extensions are considered ready
>> > for
>> > WMF production. I am establishing contacts with, among others, people at
>> > UNICEF to make sure that we identify the outstanding issues carefully
>> > and
>> > fix them efficiently. Given that the CreatePage extension requires
>> changes
>> > to the skin, it may make sense to consider using a superset of monobook
>> (I
>> > do not know how feasible this is).
>> >
>> > Given that the software is already being localised at Betawiki, we do
>> > not
>> > need to restrict ourselves to English. I understand that UNICEF uses
>> > some
>> > of
>> > their software in Swahili :) I would love to consider Swahili for this
>> ...
>> > Kennisnet is interested in this functionality, that would make Dutch an
>> > option. It needs to be clear that it is not only Wikipedia projects that
>> > will benefit.
>> >
>> > The benefits from a more useable interface have little to do with a
>> > "simple"
>> > approach. Newbies are not able to contribute. Our need for more
>> > contributors
>> > and content is most dire in our smallest projects. Personally I am not
>> that
>> > interested in using "simple" as a test environment. From my perspective,
>> it
>> > should be there for all the projects that want it. Obviously, when this
>> > extension is localised first, it will be more effective.
>> >
>> > When we are to test this in a Wikimedia Wiki, we need to get involvement
>> > from Brion. It would help a lot when the WMF actively takes part in this
>> > collaboration and make usability a priority.
>> > Thanks,
>> >      GerardM
>> >
>> >
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:02:34 +0100
> From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<23e544110812011202p73ea39a8v9effa24b44b8d11b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> @Pedro :Yep, it's a two way interaction that I believe benefits all projects
> (sort of human interwiki)
>
> @Thomas:Echo would be the English word, thanks. "Ecco" however is also
> correct eEnglish, ref.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guerilla_non-eEnglish_spelling_and_grammar_campaign.
> (Note to self: Irony should be avvoided in online communication, especially
> when writing foreignly)
>
> @Gerard: Yes, there will be a lot of loud voices, but in the end we'll
> manage to work out this as an improvement to help new (and perhaps older)
> users as well. There was A LOT of load voices at Commons when (what I still
> hope is) a more userfriendly uploadsystem was launched, but it seems to be
> working just fine ;)
>
> We may get more nonsense articles going straight to speedy deletion, but the
> way to raise the quality of wikip/media is certainly not to avvoid maiking
> it easier for people to edit,
>
> Finn R
>
> 2008/12/1 Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez at gmail.com>
>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
>> > people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
>> > sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
>> and
>> > thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as
>> communicating
>> > with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>>
>> An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
>> alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:11:19 +0000
> From: geni <geniice at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> 	<foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<f80608430812011211l148b4b48sde52fd4c92cc5ca3 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> 2008/12/1 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>:
>> Hoi,
>> There is no point in usability studies when the lessons learned are not
>> applied. At the Boston Wikimania there was another person who had done
>> studies on usability and MediaWiki. She even presented about it at the
>> "Hacker days"...
>
> The problem is the info tends to be around it an easy to access and search
> form.
>
>> As to Commons, it is effectively useless to the people that do not speak
>> English.
>
> Really? Even with the extensive uselang stuff in say german?
>
>
> --
> geni
>
>
>
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> End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8
> *******************************************
>

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