[Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan - Sassarese languages orlanguage and dialect?]

Tue Sep 11 12:45:36 UTC 2007

I never said that ISO or Ethnologue was perfect! :-)  Indeed, the field of
linguistics is such that within Standardization we just have to make a
decision - doesn't mean it is right!  Sometimes the decision is based on an
application need.  As with Klingon :-) Standardization and Linguistics are
both nightmare fields and not exact sciences - hence the problems we are
witnessing.

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Williamson [mailto:node.ue at gmail.com]
> Sent: 11 September 2007 13:30
> To: debbie at ictmarketing.co.uk; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan - Sassarese
> languages orlanguage and dialect?]
>
> ...and they have an entry for Yinglish. Ask any expert in
> Jewish languages ("the field") and they will tell you, as
> will Wikipedia, that Yinglish is really more of a combination
> of borrowings and various code-switching phenomena than it is
> an independent language.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/09/2007, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Their European data appears to be taken from books, mostly from the
> > 70s and 80s. Not "linguists working in the field" - I'm
> guessing they
> > actually do that for more "remote" or less well-documented
> languages,
> > like Arrernte.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 11/09/2007, Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Essentially Ethnologue is built from data compiled from linguists
> > > working in the field.  Although, as with every database,
> there will
> > > always be some errors and also shifting of opinions upon further
> > > research, Ethnologue is recognised as one of the top publications.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > >
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
> > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > Sent: 11 September 2007 12:36
> > > > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan -
> Sassarese languages
> > > > orlanguage and dialect?]
> > > >
> > > > No please, not Ethnologue.
> > > >
> > > > Ethnologue is not a scientific source. It's a database
> but a "very"
> > > > original database with a lot of mistakes.
> > > >
> > > > Ilario
> > > >
> > > > On 9/11/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > When you want to know what languages are recognised for the
> > > > > Netherlands check out Ethnologue.. What is recognised
> by ISO as
> > > > > a language has a big emphasis on existing languages. You
> > > > should not use
> > > > > the ratified versions of the ISO-639 as a basis for such an
> > > > understanding.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to Belarus, this is a completely different story. What we
> > > > > call be-x-old would not be accepted as a new project by the
> > > > > language committee. It has been accepted as a
> different orthography by IANA.
> > > > > The Limba Sarda Comune is a newly created language that is
> > > > made up of
> > > > > two Sardinian languages. It is unlikely that it will be
> > > > recognised by
> > > > > IANA because it will first need recognition by ISO.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is exactly to prevent these kinds of essentially POV and
> > > > political
> > > > > discussions that we are happy to associate what we accept
> > > > with what is
> > > > > understood to be of an universal quality. We are also happy
> > > > to include
> > > > > as a member of our committee someone who has experience
> > > > with applying
> > > > > for language codes both for the IANA and ISO. The Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation
> > > > > has in Debbie Garside a member of the Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation's advisory
> > > > > board who is the head of research for ISO-639-6. The point
> > > > being that
> > > > > we do get advised on the positions that we take.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >      GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=NL
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/11/07, Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2007/9/11, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella at yahoo.it>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > a) a language without an army
> > > > > > > b) a way of expressing orally that developed out of a
> > > > language and
> > > > > > > that has some differences , for example in pronunciation,
> > > > > > > some expressions etc, even having the same basics when it
> > > > > > > comes to grammar (just to mention one example)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So could
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Campidanese (ISO 639-3: sro)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Gallurese (ISO 639-3: sdn)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Logudorese (ISO 639-3: src)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Sassarese (ISO 639-3: sdc)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > be dialects of the Common Sardinian Language? Well ...
> > > > only from a
> > > > > > > logical POV this is not possible, because they were there
> > > > > > > long before the Common Sardinian Language was created ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I disagree with that form of reasoning. When
> looking at my own
> > > > > > Dutch, it was created in the 17th century based on
> > > > existing dialects
> > > > > > (basically, Dutch can be defined as the language the
> > > > > > [[Statenvertaling]] was written in), but those dialects are
> > > > > > considered dialects of Dutch nowadays (there are some
> > > > dialects that
> > > > > > are considered separate languages in Wikipedia, but the
> > > > > > languages that most influenced the official
> language are the
> > > > > > Holland and Brabant dialects, which are not). The question
> > > > > > should be
> > > > whether the
> > > > > > 4 languages and the newly created official version are
> > > > close enough
> > > > > > to be considered dialects of a single language. If that
> > > > is the case,
> > > > > > then there's only one official form of the language, and
> > > > using that
> > > > > > is not a strange thing to do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > In any case the code "sc" stands for the macro language
> > > > Sardinian
> > > > > > > and not for the Limba Sarda Comune, so there is no
> > > > reason why it
> > > > > > > should have the right to claim that code for the language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just compare this with the Belarus situation: I don't
> > > > think anyone
> > > > > > is disagreeing that be: and be-x-old: are two versions
> > > > > > (whether different orthographies, different dialects or
> > > > > > something else) of the same language. And it seems
> clear to me
> > > > > > that that single language is Belarusian. So be: is the
> > > > > > language that includes both versions, and following
> your reasoning there is no reason why be:
> > > > > > should have the right to claim that code for its language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no hard line between two dialects of the same
> > > > language and
> > > > > > two different, related languages. As such, I don't have
> > > > any trouble
> > > > > > with considering the same lingual entity at the same time a
> > > > > > variation of Sardinian and a language in its own
> right. We can
> > > > > > be hierarchical in that. And if there is a single
> formalized
> > > > > > version for a language, giving that version the code for the
> > > > language as a
> > > > > > whole seems like a logical thing to do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Andre Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
> > > > > > ICQ: 6260644  --  Skype: a_engels
> > > > > >
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> > --
> > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> >
>
>
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> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
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