[Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan - Sassarese languages or languageand dialect?]

Tue Sep 11 12:10:30 UTC 2007

Identifier: srd
Name: Sardinian
Status: Active
Code sets:  639-2 and 639-3
Equivalent:  639-1: sc

Scope: Macrolanguage
Type: Living

The individual languages within this macrolanguage are:

Campidanese Sardinian [sro]
Gallurese Sardinian [sdn]
Logudorese Sardinian [src]
Sassarese Sardinian [sdc]

Best regards

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Williamson [mailto:node.ue at gmail.com]
> Sent: 11 September 2007 13:04
> To: debbie at ictmarketing.co.uk; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan - Sassarese
> languages or languageand dialect?]
>
> sc? What does it stand for, besides Sardinian?
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/09/2007, Debbie Garside <debbie at ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote:
> > >...the Limba Sarda Comune, like any other  language in the
> world that
> > >wants recognition by ISO must  request an own ISO 639 code.
> > >>It is not an option to simply say:
> > >now let's take that one since it is there ... well the one that is
> > >there
> > stands for something else.
> >
> > Sabine is quite right... This would, indeed, be disastrous!
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Debbie
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Sabine Cretella
> > > Sent: 11 September 2007 09:25
> > > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List;
> > > wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Subject: [Foundation-l] [Fwd: Sardininan - Sassarese languages or
> > > languageand dialect?]
> > >
> > > Forwarding the post on my blog.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Sabine
> > >
> > > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > >
> > > Well, there is a nice website that can help us with that
> question ...
> > > and that is from the institution that cares about this
> officially -
> > > the Region of Sardinia.
> > >
> > > When it comes to the Limba Sarda Comuna used on the
> actual Sardinian
> > > wikipedia <http://sc.wikipedia.org> there is no doubt that the
> > > language exists, but we must appreciate that it is an artificial
> > > language that was created out of the living languages of
> Sardinia.
> > > The website of the Region of Sardinia
> > >
> <http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/limbasardacomuna/> states:
> > >
> > > Limba sarda comuna: una lingua realmente esistente: Sa
> Limba sarda
> > > comuna è naturale per il 92,8 per cento, è in posizione mediana
> > > rispetto a tutti i dialetti del sardo e può ancora essere
> migliorata
> > > per farla diventare la lingua ufficiale dei sardi.
> > >
> > > Limba sarda comuna: a language that in fact exists: Sa
> Limba sarda
> > > comuna is natural be 92,8 per cent, it is in an intermediate
> > > position compared to all Sardinian dialects and can still be
> > > improved to have it become the official language of the Sardinian
> > > people
> > >
> > > So they still want to improve the language ... nice ... 92,8 per
> > > cent of it is natural that means 7,2 percent is not natural. If I
> > > consider these percentages to what translators work with
> every day,
> > > that is the "matches" we get in our CAT tools, then 92,8
> percent is
> > > a low percentage of being "natural". It seems to be high, but in
> > > fact it is not ...
> > >
> > > Let's say I translate any kind of text (a sentence for
> > > example) and my analysis software tells me that the text is up to
> > > 93% percent equal to another sentence I translated before, this
> > > means that I cannot leave the sentence as is, because I
> will need to
> > > change at least one word in the sentence to make it a proper
> > > translation of what is there.
> > >
> > > Just to give you an example:
> > > The house on the hill is green - that is what was
> translated before.
> > > Now I get such a 92,8 per cent match with a sentence
> > > like: the tree on the hill is green. If I left it as is: it would
> > > state something completely different.
> > >
> > > You can also look at it like this:
> > > The house on the hill is nice and green. - that is 100%
> English The
> > > house on the hill is nice and vert. - that is approx. 89
> % English +
> > > 11% French (it is just a matter of playing with the
> amount of words
> > > to get the 92,8%)
> > >
> > > So what these 92,8% tell us: even if a huge part of it is
> considered
> > > to be built out of the "natural language part" it is still an
> > > artificial language.
> > >
> > > But what is a language and what is a dialect? Well: that
> very much
> > > depends from which POV you look at things. But ISO
> determined some
> > > rules to understand what a language is and what not. That
> is, before
> > > you can get an ISO 639 code for a language you need to prove that
> > > this languabe complies to the standard. Of course there
> are living
> > > languages that don't have an ISO code, because up to now nobody
> > > cared for them - I am just thinking about Griko Salentino, a
> > > language spoken and written in Italy - but if people care
> about that
> > > language, they will ask for it.
> > >
> > > What is a dialect ...
> > >
> > > a) a language without an army
> > > b) a way of expressing orally that developed out of a
> language and
> > > that has some differences , for example in pronunciation, some
> > > expressions etc, even having the same basics when it comes to
> > > grammar (just to mention one example)
> > >
> > > So could
> > >
> > >     Campidanese (ISO 639-3: sro)
> > >
> > >     Gallurese (ISO 639-3: sdn)
> > >
> > >     Logudorese (ISO 639-3: src)
> > >
> > >     Sassarese (ISO 639-3: sdc)
> > >
> > > be dialects of the Common Sardinian Language? Well ...
> only from a
> > > logical POV this is not possible, because they were there long
> > > before the Common Sardinian Language was created ...
> > >
> > > By having their ISO 639 code, when they requested that code, they
> > > complied to the requests of the International Standardisation
> > > Organisation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO> and
> therefore, on an
> > > international level they are considered to be languages
> even with an
> > > ISO code.
> > >
> > > Please let me repeat: there are languages that don't have
> one, but
> > > these can request a code ...
> > >
> > > When it comes to the language committee we had to draw a line
> > > somewhere and this line should not come from us, that is:
> it is NOT
> > > up to the members of the language committee to decide what a
> > > language is or not.
> > > We needed some kind of standard to apply and the clearest one was
> > > and still is the ISO standard. So if somebody wants to
> complain and
> > > say that the four languages above are in fact dialects of
> Sardinian
> > > and not languages, we should kindly invite them to create their
> > > papers and contact ISO directly to have the ISO 639-3
> language code
> > > taken away ...
> > > it is NOT up to the language committee to take such decisions.
> > >
> > > Another thing people should then also consider to do: also UNESCO
> > > states that these four languages are languages and they
> are in the
> > > red book of endangered languages - so if whoever states that they
> > > are not languages and he/she is so sure about it: they
> should also
> > > contact UNESCO. It is NOT up to the language committee to
> take such
> > > decisions as to delete four languages out of the endangered
> > > languages list ...
> > >
> > > Sorry for me being so ironical, but: when such discussions about
> > > what is and what is not a language come up ... well:
> > > before you come to us, please go to the INTERNATIONAL bodies that
> > > deal with the question.
> > >
> > > We are only normal people that base their decisions on
> standards and
> > > can tell people where to go to request their code, but we can nor
> > > create that code, nor influence what is recognised on an
> > > international level.
> > > (Nor do we want to do that).
> > >
> > > Now to the question of sc.wikipedia ... I remember that, at the
> > > beginning, sc.wikipedia tried to host all of the Sardinian
> > > languages, then someone came up and decided to make
> sc.wikipedia a
> > > Limba Sarda Comune wikipedia only. Well: the Limba Sarda
> Comune is
> > > being used by Sardinian Authorities to facilitate their work.
> > >
> > > In any case the code "sc" stands for the macro language Sardinian
> > > and not for the Limba Sarda Comune, so there is no reason why it
> > > should have the right to claim that code for the
> language. That is
> > > the Limba Sarda Comune, like any other language in the world that
> > > wants recognition by ISO must request an own ISO 639
> code. It is not
> > > an option to simply say:
> > > now let's take that one since it is there ... well the
> one that is
> > > there stands for something else.
> > >
> > > The question of the actual sc.wikipedia came up because of people
> > > telling us that Sassarese is not a language, but a dialect of
> > > Sardinian and that the Limba Sarda Comune (Common Sardinian
> > > Language) is the only "right language" of Sardinia.
> > >
> > > Well again: it is not us who is going to decide on
> Sassarese and the
> > > other three being or not being a language - we rely on ISO 639-3
> > > codes since we had to draw a line and avoid to simply
> assert things.
> > > It is not us who is going to decide if the Limba Sarda Comune is
> > > going to get an ISO 639 code. If you, who read this, are
> interested
> > > in this matter, it is up to you to get things on their way.
> > >
> > > See: the decision to base whatever we do on ISO 639-3 was
> one of the
> > > wisest decisions ever taken within the language committee ...
> > > imagine which fights (almost all political
> > > based) we would have if we did not do this.
> > >
> > > Just to make things clear - I repeat it again:
> > >
> > > a) we do NOT decide if something is a language or not
> > > b) we base our decisions on ISO 639-3
> > > c) we actually need a solution for various scripts used for one
> > > language
> > > d) we would love to see Multilingual Mediawiki there
> since it could
> > > be used to create easily sustainable communities
> > > e) we are not going to go ahead on discussing if Sassarese is a
> > > language or not (it has a code)
> > > f) we will need to find a solution for Limba Sarda Comune
> which does
> > > NOT have an ISO 639 code and is using the sc code in an improper
> > > way.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your patience and understanding.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted By Sabine Cretella to words & more
> > > <http://sabinecretella.blogspot.com/2007/09/sardininan-sassare
> > > se-languages-or.html>
> > > at 9/11/2007 08:53:00 AM
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
>
>