[Foundation-l] foundation-l Digest, Vol 38, Issue 101
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler at gmail.com
Wed May 30 15:36:32 UTC 2007
I unsubscribed you.
Please note, that you could have done this manually at
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Regards
Michael
On 5/30/07, Eric Arther <ericarther at mac.com> wrote:
> Please for the love of God STOP SENDING ME EMAILS!!!
> On May 29, 2007, at 1:46 PM, foundation-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org
> wrote:
>
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> > than "Re: Contents of foundation-l digest..."
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Meta Ban (Alex Newman)
> > 2. Re: Wikikids (Nicholas Moreau)
> > 3. Re: Wikikids (Angela)
> > 4. Re: Wikikids (teun spaans)
> > 5. Re: Meta Ban (Azdiyy)
> > 6. Re: Wikikids (Mathias)
> > 7. Re: Wikikids (Samuel Klein)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:20:48 +0100
> > From: "Alex Newman" <alex9891 at hotmail.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Meta Ban
> > To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > Message-ID: <BAY119-F21F2A735C12BF8C0B022468B2F0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >
> > Azdiyy wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >> Sorry if i'm in the wrong place, but i wonder what one can do if they
> >> think their ban on meta is unjustified.
> >>
> >> trying to talk to the blocking admin by email or irc (and to others)
> >> led nowhere.
> >> m:user:Azdiyy was blocked indef on may 24 with no warning. if meta is
> >> not suitable
> >> for my postings i am willing to learn. but an indef ban is too
> >> much imo.
> >>
> >> many thanks,
> >> azdiyy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >
> > Guillom said to complain about users on the individual wiki, not
> > Meta. Maybe
> > your postings were not suitable for Meta (I haven't actually looked
> > at all
> > your edits, but your most recent ones on talk pages seem rather
> > unsuitable
> > to me.
> >
> > Alex (Majorly)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > New, exclusive and FREE - Download Madonna's "Hey You" now!
> > http://www.liveearth.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:17:34 -0400
> > From: "Nicholas Moreau" <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
> > To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > Message-ID:
> > <2540ad290705290717u3e8d6658o378f8bba60ccbd2c at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On this topic, I find it disappointing (at least in the footer and the
> > "English explanation of WikiKids") that Kennisnet hasn't made the
> > project's content available under a free license. On edit pages it
> > notes:
> >
> > "GEBRUIK GEEN MATERIAAL DAT BESCHERMD WORDT DOOR AUTEURSRECHT, TENZIJ
> > JE DAARTOE TOESTEMMING HEBT!"
> >
> > which means:
> >
> > "USE NO MATERIAL WHICH IS PROTECTED COPYRIGHT, UNLESS YOU HAVE TO THIS
> > END AUTHORISATION!"
> >
> > But beyond shooing away plagiarism, there doesn't seem to be any
> > obvious mention. They've even removed the default mention of the GNU
> > FDL that appears by default on Wikia hosted wikis.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:41:14 +0100
> > From: Angela <beesley at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <8b722b800705290741l46e9a095k4af5cecbe0fc43c4 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On 5/29/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On this topic, I find it disappointing (at least in the footer and
> >> the
> >> "English explanation of WikiKids") that Kennisnet hasn't made the
> >> project's content available under a free license. On edit pages it
> >> notes:
> >>
> >> "GEBRUIK GEEN MATERIAAL DAT BESCHERMD WORDT DOOR AUTEURSRECHT, TENZIJ
> >> JE DAARTOE TOESTEMMING HEBT!"
> >
> > This is just the default message in MediaWiki. You can see the same
> > thing in the original version of the Dutch Wikipedia -
> > http://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
> > title=MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning&oldid=178550
> >
> >> But beyond shooing away plagiarism, there doesn't seem to be any
> >> obvious mention. They've even removed the default mention of the GNU
> >> FDL that appears by default on Wikia hosted wikis.
> >
> > The wiki is GFDL. The edit page links to
> > http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Wikikids:Auteursrechten which
> > says that the text on Wikikids is released under the same licence as
> > on Wikipedia, namely the GFDL.
> >
> > Angela
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:44:04 +0200
> > From: "teun spaans" <teun.spaans at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <8fb899d70705290744g577e2797p451de62dca21db72 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > This is just a warning that users should not use copyrighted
> > material unless
> > they have permission.
> >
> > It is a bit out of sight, but another page says:
> > De teksten op Wikikids worden vrijgegeven onder dezelfde licentie
> > als op
> > Wikipedia <http://nl.wikipedia.org/>, namelijk de
> > GFDL-licentie<http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html>
> > The texts on wikikids are being made available under the same
> > license as
> > Wikipeda, that is the GFDL license.
> >
> > I wish you health and happiness,
> > teun spaans
> >
> >
> > On 5/29/07, Nicholas Moreau <nicholasmoreau at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On this topic, I find it disappointing (at least in the footer and
> >> the
> >> "English explanation of WikiKids") that Kennisnet hasn't made the
> >> project's content available under a free license. On edit pages it
> >> notes:
> >>
> >> "GEBRUIK GEEN MATERIAAL DAT BESCHERMD WORDT DOOR AUTEURSRECHT, TENZIJ
> >> JE DAARTOE TOESTEMMING HEBT!"
> >>
> >> which means:
> >>
> >> "USE NO MATERIAL WHICH IS PROTECTED COPYRIGHT, UNLESS YOU HAVE TO
> >> THIS
> >> END AUTHORISATION!"
> >>
> >> But beyond shooing away plagiarism, there doesn't seem to be any
> >> obvious mention. They've even removed the default mention of the GNU
> >> FDL that appears by default on Wikia hosted wikis.
> >>
> >> Nick
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:25:48 +0100
> > From: Azdiyy <azdiyy at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Meta Ban
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <6af34c650705290825k5479f911n8ae92ca2339dc15e at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > if they're unsuitable, what about warning the 'offender' or a short
> > ban?
> > Azdiyy
> >
> > On 29/05/07, Alex Newman <alex9891 at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Azdiyy wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> Sorry if i'm in the wrong place, but i wonder what one can do if
> >>> they
> >>> think their ban on meta is unjustified.
> >>>
> >>> trying to talk to the blocking admin by email or irc (and to others)
> >>> led nowhere.
> >>> m:user:Azdiyy was blocked indef on may 24 with no warning. if
> >>> meta is
> >>> not suitable
> >>> for my postings i am willing to learn. but an indef ban is too
> >>> much imo.
> >>>
> >>> many thanks,
> >>> azdiyy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Guillom said to complain about users on the individual wiki, not
> >> Meta. Maybe
> >> your postings were not suitable for Meta (I haven't actually
> >> looked at all
> >> your edits, but your most recent ones on talk pages seem rather
> >> unsuitable
> >> to me.
> >>
> >> Alex (Majorly)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:19:42 +0200
> > From: Mathias <mathias.damour at laposte.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID: <465C60AE.D7FA4210 at laposte.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Robert Horning a ?crit :
> >>
> >> mathias.damour wrote:
> >>> Another point is that Wikijunior "only" aims to produce and
> >>> offer content for children whereas Wikikids.nl and Vikidia
> >>> want children to be involved in building this content. We want
> >>> to let them be active with knowledge for pedagogical interest.
> >>> See this article : http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Writing-to-learn
> >>
> >> I have serious doubts about the ability of children to get
> >> involved in
> >> this process, other than to the extent that they already are involved
> >> with Wikimedia projects. There are minors (including some that have
> >> administrator access... as discussed in some earlier threads) who are
> >> involved with Wikipedia content (and a few I suspected on
> >> Wikibooks as
> >> well), but these tend to be kids that are exceptionally
> >> motivated. And
> >> they participate on Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects as
> >> peers to
> >> everybody else who is a contributor, with no special distinction.
> >> While
> >> the idea of having kids write for kids sounds appealing on paper, a
> >> bunch of 4th graders write like... well... a bunch of 4th
> >> graders. They
> >> are still trying to learn the basic mechanics of writing, and
> >> ought to
> >> be learning how to write from those who have already mastered the
> >> skill,
> >> not from those who are still apprentices in the subject. I
> >> digress if
> >> you think some contributors on Wikipedia don't know how to write, but
> >> that more or less proves my point as well.
> >
> > It would be nice to have a feed-back from those who are involved in
> > the
> > Wikikids.nl project on this point.
> > I would say a few things :
> > - We choosed not to make special distinction related to age on
> > Vikidia (no
> > more than on Wikipedia). It is just asked that if you tell your age
> > on your
> > user page, you shouldn't cheat about it, just as you shouldn't
> > cheat about
> > your Diploma/academic degree on Wikipedia. (It's written in the
> > disclaimer
> > that a user could be blocked if he cheat about his age, but that you
> > shouldn't assumed that it has been checked.)
> > - 8-13 years is the readers target age. They are welcomed to edit, but
> > adults so as - say - 13-18 years are welcomed too. We could guess that
> > quite a lot of these (teenagers) could be willing to edit in a
> > wiki, but
> > don't feel able to do it on Wikipedia. They can be pleased to do it
> > for
> > younger people. That's what happen on Vikidia, where teenage
> > editors are
> > quite importants.
> > - it seems that children are not able to write as much as older
> > people,
> > but they could do a quite good job on one subject. Anyway, it's a
> > wiki so
> > their articles are to be bettered by others (which can be formative
> > to them).
> > They can aslo get involved in maintenance task (internal links...)
> > which
> > make them become active readers rather than only content recipient.
> > Participation of children is nevertheless something like a pillar for
> > these wikis.
> >
> >> What I'm trying to point out is that those who are involved with
> >> Wikijunior were not even contacted about this idea in the first place
> >> when the idea was originally brought up on Meta, and suggestions
> >> on Meta
> >> to look at the Wikijunior project as perhaps something to work
> >> with were
> >> met with incredible hostility by those suggesting this Wikikids
> >> project. This doesn't have to be an either-or situation, as I
> >> believe
> >> the sum is healthier than the individual parts alone.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand well ; "This doesn't have to be an either-or
> > situation" do you mean that they can be book for children AND
> > adults on
> > Wikibooks, or that they can be wikibooks AND an encyclopedia for
> > children.
> > That's what I would say.
> >
> >> I am presuming that you are writing about this because you want to
> >> seek
> >> input from the Wikimedia community, and would like to enlist
> >> support for
> >> those who might want to get involved with a project of this
> >> nature. I'm
> >> merely suggesting here that there are individuals who may want to
> >> join
> >> in this sort of project, and you should try to join with these
> >> efforts.
> >> There have been some attempts in the past to move Wikijunior to a
> >> completely separate project and domain name, including forming
> >> Wikijunior as a completely independent Wikimedia sister project.
> >> One of
> >> these proposals, and not rejected by the Wikijunior community, was to
> >> move to a more Wikipedia-like format of articles rather than the
> >> themed
> >> collections organized into books such as currently exist on
> >> Wikibooks.
> >> Please ask those involved with the development of Wikijunior to at
> >> least
> >> comment on your ideas. For English Wikijunior, the best place is at
> >> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Wikijunior
> >>
> >> What all this concept is lacking is a very motivated leader who is
> >> willing to take the next step and demonstrate that there is a large
> >> concensus among those want to go this route. And unlike the problems
> >> that existed with Wikiversity on Wikibooks, there is virtually nobody
> >> who wants to see Wikijunior "kicked off" of Wikibooks. Wikijunior
> >> enjoys a nearly independent existence without having to worry
> >> about the
> >> project overhead of maintaining a separate group of admins, and a
> >> strongly symbiotic relationship exists as well between Wikibooks and
> >> Wikijunior to bring new users and contributors to both projects. I
> >> think that Wikijunior would struggle with a great many issues if
> >> it had
> >> an independent existence at the moment that it doesn't have to worry
> >> about right now.
> >
> > I had a look to the wikijunior pages in english and french. On the
> > english
> > talk page, the topic on a separated website is about either a read-
> > only
> > website for safe reading for children, or a separate wikibooks. I can
> > understand that if wikijunior should still aim to writes books,
> > there is
> > no determining utility to make a separate wiki for it.
> > But the wikikids idea is quite different, since it has a "Wikipedia-
> > like
> > format" as you say, and for it aims to let children write on it.
> >
> > I don't know if wikijunior could (and would like) to move to that, and
> > anyway "This doesn't have to be an either-or situation" ;-)
> >
> > Mathias Damour
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:49:11 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Samuel Klein <meta.sj at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705291321090.25804 at hera.hcs.harvard.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown"
> >
> >
> > There are a few issues here, which should perhaps be addressed by more
> > than one project.
> >
> > 1) Simplifying language
> >
> > Finding a way to provide versions of articles targeted at different
> > audiences -- different levels of jargon or language complexity --
> > would
> > be a valuable achievement. Our early effort with Simple-English
> > remains
> > a hack which needs improvement and localization.
> >
> > Examples: simple english, simple spanish
> >
> >
> > 2) Writing for children
> >
> > There is a long tradition of providing children with books about the
> > world, including drawings, games, and activities; with a shift in
> > focus,
> > layout, and tone from more general encyclopedias. At the same time, I
> > believe that most full-length English encyclopedias have for
> > decades been
> > primarily marketed for home use by schoolchildren...
> >
> > Examples: Andrew Cates' SOS selection of Wikipedia
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Wikipedia_CD_Selection
> > Wikijunior
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikijunior
> >
> >
> > 3) Projects by and for children
> >
> > There is a need for space for younger authors to develop and share
> > their
> > own work. This may or may not be directly related to one of the above
> > projects.
> >
> > Examples: Few. UNICEF's Voices of Youth project offers some space
> > for
> > this sort of collaboration among their young contributors.
> >
> >
> > 4) Packaging things into books v. ongoing development of articles
> >
> > This has been a slightly confusing distinction since we started
> > putting
> > 'books' into digital form, breaking the traditions of bound and
> > printed
> > works one by one. There are useful distinctions b/t wikipedia and
> > wikibooks, and likewise between a children's encyclopedia idea and
> > wikijunior, but they are as much philosophical as unavoidable. This
> > is especially true as books become more and more modular, and parts of
> > books are used in multiple works.
> >
> >
> > -----
> >
> > It would be good to start a discussion and collaboration including
> > interested groups... and to seed a children's encyclopedia with
> > some of
> > the existing material that is in other formats.
> >
> > The advantage to 3) over the others is that projects whose primary
> > audience can contribute directly to their development have an
> > excellent
> > model for sustained growth.
> >
> > SJ
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 28 May 2007, mathias.damour wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Robert Horning wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mathias wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Such a wiki has been launched in french (in which I am
> >> involved) see an english explanation about it:
> >> http://fr.vikidia.org/index.php/Vikidia:About and in Dutch
> >> (see
> >> http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Wikikids:English_explanation
> >> None of them are Wikimedia project.)
> >>>> Both have a quite active community and have reached 1000
> >> articles.
> >>>
> >>> (...)
> >>> And Wikijunior is also quite multilingual, with some sort of
> >>> Wikijunior project on nearly every language edition of
> >> Wikibooks,
> >>> including French, German, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, and
> >> English. In
> >>> many cases these "articles" or "modules" have been translated or
> >>> rewritten in multiple languages as well, especially the original
> >>> Wikijunior books of the Solar System and the Big Cats.
> >>>
> >>> And Wikijunior is clearly a Wikimedia project in its own
> >> right, other
> >>> than it is hosted concurrently with Wikibooks. Try
> >>> http://en.wikijunior.org/ to see where the wikijunior domain
> >> goes.
> >>>
> >>> This isn't to say that some effort shouldn't happen to
> >> perhaps expand
> >>> the range of this proposal, but it seems like the largest
> >> problem it has
> >>> faced is an ever fragmenting community and leaders who
> >> havn't had the
> >>> desire to keep the project moving. Writing literary content for
> >>> children is not an easy task, and it takes a focused
> >> community to keep
> >>> the project growing.
> >>
> >> Wikijunior is clearly a wikibooks project. I mean that it is
> >> not a Wikipedia-like project, and being hosted on the
> >> wikibooks wiki makes impossible several feature of Wikipedia.
> >> For example you can't make easy internal wikilinks : wikilink
> >> to "Aluminum" is not [[Aluminum]] but [[Wikijunior The
> >> Elements/Aluminum]]. The "oxygen" page:
> >> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior_The_Elements/Oxygen
> >> should only tell about the element, not the dioxygen gas. (it
> >> does indeed, and doesn't make it clear between one and the
> >> other) and it doesn't make it easy to create another page
> >> about the gas, since this wikibooks is about the elements.
> >>
> >> Another point is that Wikijunior "only" aims to produce and
> >> offer content for children whereas Wikikids.nl and Vikidia
> >> want children to be involved in building this content. We want
> >> to let them be active with knowledge for pedagogical interest.
> >> See this article : http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Writing-to-learn
> >>
> >> I don't think that "fragmenting community and leaders" is a
> >> real danger now that several Wikipedia have reached such a
> >> huge size both in articles and in editors.
> >>
> >> Some people have had the idea to make either special articles
> >> or a special wiki for children of each grade, or even for each
> >> grade AND each school. (because you would have to explain in a
> >> different way to a 9 years old child than to a 12 years old)
> >> see this discusion:
> >> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Wikis_for_children) I feel that
> >> it would be "fragmenting community" and that one single
> >> encyclopedic wiki for 8 to 13 year old children and for one
> >> language is a fair middle.
> >>
> >>
> >>> As for the health of Wikijunior books, many of them have reached
> >>> "featured book" status as some of the "best of..."
> >> Wikibooks, and on
> >>> en.wikbooks I would say that you could easily get much more
> >> than 1000
> >>> modules that could easily seed an en.wikikids project. Many
> >> of these
> >>> modules could on their own reach featured article status on
> >>> en.wikipedia, but for the fact they are not on Wikipedia.
> >> Rather than
> >>> try to dissect what went wrong with the previous attempt at
> >> an English
> >>> language version of this project, I would suggest that you
> >> try and see
> >>> what has been done "right" by Wikijunior and its development
> >> community.
> >>> And certainly try to pool the efforts of this "Wikikids"
> >> group and those
> >>> who are writing "Wikijunior" content. I have not seen any
> >> effort to
> >>> recruit those involved with Wikijunior to help with this
> >> proposal in any
> >>> meaningful way.
> >>
> >> Do you tell about this attempt ?
> >> http://editthis.info/wikikidsen/Main_Page I didn't look at it
> >> closely, but I am afraid that it wasn't lead in a proper way.
> >> Another think is that there is "simple english wikipedia",
> >> whom no other equivalent have been created in any other
> >> language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a
> >> wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple,
> >> and I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so
> >> big and hasn't been created in other language may show that
> >> its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying.
> >>
> >> The idea to seed from wikijunior could be good, so as the idea
> >> to create such wiki on the Vikidia and Wikikids.nl model.
> >> I can't say about Wikikids.nl, but if by chance they would be
> >> some encyclopedic wikis dedicated to children to open in other
> >> language, Vikidia (in french) would rather become a wikimedia
> >> project and work on it together than see them created by
> >> isolated groups in each language.
> >>
> >> Hope to hear from you,
> >>
> >> Mathias Damour
> >>
> >> Cr?ez votre adresse ?lectronique prenom.nom at laposte.net
> >> 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus int?gr?s.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> > End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 38, Issue 101
> > *********************************************
>
>
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