[Foundation-l] Wikikids

GerardM gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
Wed May 30 06:10:49 UTC 2007

You indicate that Wikijunior is a WMF trademark... I would not be so sure
about that. Is there somewhere a link that indicates this is the case ?

NB a domain does not make a trademark

On 5/30/07, Robert Horning <robert_horning at netzero.net> wrote:
> Gerard Dummer wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl.
> WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children.
> > When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what
> you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew
> that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That
> we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any
> other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for
> children in the age of 8 - 13.
> > Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the
> technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that
> continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years.
> > There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in
> assigments 2) create a writing environment.
> > This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the
> OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans,
> webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on:
> http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs
> > This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias.
> > @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't
> say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write
> articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect.
> But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children
> to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a
> weakness as a strength.
> > I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image
> that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a
> misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation.
> > Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a
> "motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken?
> > @Matthias
> > Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as
> long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an
> important role. Some are sysop.
> > I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But
> we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a
> class. Everyone can contribute that way.
> >
> > Gerard Dummer
> > www.wikikids.nl
> >
> This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia
> Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas.
> This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects,
> and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta
> wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this
> contact this very list.  I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my
> $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years,
> and I've seen these proposals come and go.  Some have been successful
> and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have
> even become full Wikimedia sister projects.  I've even been involved
> with some of that effort on a few different levels.
> What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to
> actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to
> advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some
> cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how
> hard you try.  There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into
> establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom
> to that process as well.  I should note that 95% (I think it is actually
> worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a
> sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture
> industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take
> off for some reason or another.  A children's oriented encyclopedia
> happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you
> nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea.
> I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
> A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead
> of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their
> own independent wiki server.  The disadvantage of this is that the
> relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit
> weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all.  The
> advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are
> too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page
> paper on that from my experience at this point.  Perhaps I should for an
> upcoming Wikimania :)
> To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on
> this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you
> would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours
> if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen.  If your goal
> here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you
> are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible
> thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and
> means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation
> mailing list.  I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this
> is something that I too would like to developed further.  I should also
> note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are
> usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already
> devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key
> user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with
> some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation.  I would much more strongly
> recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on
> Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for
> your effort.
> The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read
> the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on
> their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in
> nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior.  And posting a
> message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of
> debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume
> discussion forii.  There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page
> that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of
> the time.  The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments
> on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank.  The Dutch
> Wikibooks "Staff Lounge"
> (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some
> modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from
> what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of
> (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project.
> I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem
> that perhaps should be corrected.
> I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a
> learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
> Robert Horning
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