[Foundation-l] About transparency

Derrick Farnell derrick.farnell at gmail.com
Wed Dec 26 13:54:51 UTC 2007

I agree with SJ. Radical transparency seems to fit perfectly with the
radical collaboration model used by Wikipedia.  If we can give anonymous
users the power to vandalise a page, which can then be seen by everyone,
including the media, then I don't see why we can't let everyone see our
decision-making processes, warts and all.

I also think that the term 'radical transparency' is a bit loaded: the word
'radical' seems designed to scare people in this context. Why not just use
the word 'transparency'?! It is surely lesser forms of transparency that
should have a qualifying term - e.g. 'semi-transparency'. It would surely be
misleading to refer to such forms of semi-transparency simply with the term

But I have a much, much deeper concern about Florence's post. Why are we
merely being presented with the decision not to have 'radical transparency'?
I appreciate that the board must be able to make certain decisions without
consultation with the rest of the community, but surely not on such an
incredibly fundamental issue as this? I'm new to this community and am
wondering what rules are in place to dictate which decisions are made by the
board and which by the community as a whole? For example, I assume it is not
the case that the board has the power to introduce adds without any

Derrick Farnell

On Dec 25, 2007 11:39 PM, SJ Klein <meta.sj at gmail.com> wrote:

> A fairly long reply to Florence and Sebastian.
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, Florence Devouard wrote:
> > Being leaving you, I would like to share with you part of an article
> > (which you may find in a rather famous encyclopedia). I invite all of
> > you to read it carefully.
> Thank you for sharing.
> > Some organizations and networks, for example, Wikipedia, the GNU/Linux
> > community and Indymedia, insist that not only the ordinary information
> > of interest to the community is made freely available, but that all (or
> > nearly all) meta-levels of organizing and decision-making are themselves
> > also published. This is known as radical transparency.
> >
> > ---------
> >
> > I think the last paragraph is interesting. Indeed, what some of you are
> > asking is radical transparency at the organization level. And radical
> > transparency is not really suitable for us
> I regret that you feel this way.  Are you deeply resolved that this is
> right?  You who always stood up for the rights of the unwanted on the
> projects?  The power of such transparency is being greatly undervalued --
> indeed, even in this email on transparency, you do not once mention the
> value of transparency explicitly.  When did we start doubting this basic
> truth?
> I have always had the utmost faith in you as a board member, and then as
> Chair, precisely because you have such a strong sense of openness and
> propriety.  So it disturbs me to read such muted overtones in this letter
> of yours.
> > in most part because we are in the eye-storm of the media interest and
> > that any scandal (or non-scandal actually) is likely to raise the
> > interest of a journalist, and likely to spread at light-speed
> Why are we as a project so sensitive?  Why should we care?  Wikipedia is
> and will remain one of the most extraordinary collaborations in human
> history.  The greatest exercise in knowledge organization OF ALL TIME.
> The one great strength of the project is that there has been only one;
> there is nothing like it anywhere in the world, in any field. The
> ramblings of a journalist out for a juicy story are hardly relevant on a
> timescale of generations.  Indeed, being remembered for radical
> transparency would do more to cement Wikipedia's reputation than any
> short-term gain in public approval.  Why are we seeking 'public' approval?
> > Why should we care ? Collectively, we are likely to mostly care because
> > of our economical system. We essentially rely on the goodwill of
> > donators, and donators are heavily sensitive to public displays of
> > disagreements, fights, errors, misestimates, major screw-ups.
> Well, that's an interesting position.  So we seek public approval for
> short-term financial gain.  I also think it is entirely wrong.  I believe
> that the most active and valuable contributors -- those few editors who
> put in thousands of hours of work a year on the site, whose talents we as
> a project could not possible find by posting job descriptions and trying
> to hire 'editors', who are contributing the most to our little
> Wiki-economy -- that those contributors will all appreciate this sort of
> transparency.  Tremendously; appreciate with the depth of spirit that
> leads one to renew a commitment to devote one's spare waking hours to a
> great endeavour.
> We should absolutely preserve a clean reputation; but that starts with
> our most prolific and active donors : the people who pay close enough
> attention to know the difference between a pr pitch and the truth :
> the people who love and respect the history of often heated debate
> which gave rise to Wikipedia as we know it.
> And why should we want to hide fights, errors, and disagreements from the
> world, those who are not yet contributors? This is the nature of life; of
> collaboration; of any project. I think being open about conflict or tricky
> issues is often the best way to draw new people in -- the best way to
> encourage newfound trust. contribution to Wikipedia, like the foundation
> of any economic system, is based on widespread trust.
> And again, even from a publicity standpoint; shows and programs about the
> instability of real life are today as popular as any on television.  It is
> a myth that people prefer or respect simple scripted story lines and a
> facade of perfection to the turbulence of reality.
> On the topic of having too little time and 'human resources' to deal
> swiftly with certain things (like the treasurer search):
> > For example, we are looking for a treasurer. Can we reasonably appoint
> > someone most of us have never met ? Likely not, but the next time we
> I know there was a community calls for interested treasurers.  But
> was there a suggestion of having a public place to discuss these; or
> even to see who has applied?  What is the rationale there?  With more
> public discussion, many of us would have become more invested in the
> issue, and would likely have had good suggestions to make.
> Perhaps I am not the only one reading this list who can think of
> potentially suitable person they have not contacted... Of course personal
> resumes and other information could be submitted privately.  But I wonder
> if any of the truly eligible candidates are people who would not even want
> their interest in the position to be published and discussed openly.
> > However, in the recent weeks, my belief is that, we have seen
> <
> > - a tendency to shut down requests and criticism, whether on this list
> > or even on private lists, in an attempt to canalize the nature of
> > information being made available
> > - a tendency to craft "authorized" messaging, accompanied with severe
> > criticism against trusted members deviating from this authorized
> messages
> What does this mean, for such a large [set of] project[s]?  What is an
> example of an authorized message?
> > Not all ideas in these three tendencies are wrong. Standardization may
> > be a good idea in some circonstances and facilitate daily operations.
> > Privacy to discuss sensitive matters is obviously a good idea. And
> > speaking with a unique voice rather than a cloud of voices is
> > strengthening.
> I'm not sure the last sentence is true.  When there *is* a shared voice
> and vision, that is strengthening.  When this is forced, it is not.
> Speaking with many different [genuine!] voices can also be strengthening.
> > But I would advise going too far on that path. It is not healthy
> > generally, it is frustrating many good contributors. In an environmental
> > situation which is very unstable with competitors, a rather
> > decentralized, flexible system, with plenty of opportunities to jump in
> > the system, is usually considered the best solution.
> I agree it is frustrating many contributors.  I don't think competition
> has much to do with it...
> Sebastian writes:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This kind of transparency is detrimental to any organisation of
> < significant size...
> >  If, for example, a business has a tentative interest in a deal with the
> > Wikimedia Foundation to publish Wikipedia content and use the trademark,
> > those following negotiations will necessarily be confidential as will be
> > the terms of the agreement. They have to be because incorporating
> > Wikipedia content in a new, innovative way can be a significant
> > competitive advantage - just think of the recent announcement by Spiegel
> > in Germany to create a new knowledge portal combining a variety of
> > sources with Wikipedia articles.
> I agree with all of the changes you suggest later in your email,
> Sebastian, but I disagree with your comments above... your example of the
> Spiegel and other similar efforts are hardly ones that need to be kept
> largely confidential -- if 10% of such discussions are kept private, that
> should both be quite transparent and help avoid divulging sensitive
> private/personal/financial data.
> The competitive advantage argument falls flat; I suppose we could also
> encourage innovation in MediaWiki by engaging in business deals with
> people who want to develop competitive advantage by adding non-free
> extensions -- after all, it is one of the most widely used pieces of
> software in the world.  There are good reasons, tied directly to goals of
> sharing information with the widest possible audience, that we don't do
> that.  And the creators of the tools in question chose their licenses
> carefully to preempt such arguments shutting down the free sharing of
> future innovations.
> Wishing you and everyone a happy holiday season, and a head start on
> a productive and joyful 2008,
> SJ
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

More information about the foundation-l mailing list