[Foundation-l] Vandalism and small wikis

[Ray Saintonge]

Darko Bulatovic wrote:

>Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>  
>
>>Darko Bulatovic schreef:
>>  
>>    
>>
>>>Yann Forget wrote:
>>>  
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Some wikis are plagued with vandalism, spams and non sense. Moldavan
>>>>Wikipedia seems the worst at this time, but there have been others too.
>>>>These projects do not bring any free knowledge to anybody, just a lot of
>>>>works for volunteers (hopefully there are great volunteers like Pill)
>>>>and stewards.
>>>>
>>>>Regarding the Moldavan Wikipedia (http://mo.wikipedia.org), the
>>>>administrators election was already cancelled twice because of massive
>>>>attacks. Sincere editors have been discouraged and have left. So the
>>>>wiki is just a battle field for vandals, trolls and sockpuppets. There
>>>>is no expected improvement in the near future because the language
>>>>itself is in the middle of a political controversy.
>>>>
>>>>I forsee the same situation for the Montenegrin Wikipedia if it is
>>>>created. These wikis only give a bad image of Wikimedia. I think that
>>>>the Foundation should take its responsibilities and take some decisions.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Yann
>>>>  
>>>>    
>>>>      
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I cant believe my eyes that you Yann say this. How in the God sake you 
>>>can forsee such thing about Montenegrin wikipedia? Montenegrin wikipedia 
>>>gives bad image of Wikimedia? This statement that you did give bad image 
>>>to WMF.  You don't have any  argument to say this and to support your 
>>>statement.
>>>Please elaborate this on Montenegrin request for Wikipedia.
>>>
>>>Wikipedia is multilingual and multicultural project, without that WMF 
>>>don't have right to use that statement. What was done with Montenegrin 
>>>request is just showing what kind of lobbying is possible on WMF.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Darko bulatovic
>>>President of IT Association of Montenegro
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>>Hoi,
>>Wikipedia is in its manifestations very much a multilingual project and 
>>very much not a multicultural project. Cultural and political reasons 
>>are not a reason to start another project. When you read the article 
>>about Montenegrin, the language on the English Wikipedia, it explains 
>>quite clearly that elements that are to make Montegrin special can be 
>>found outside of Montenegro as well. This means that from a linguistic 
>>point of view the case for a Montenegrin Wikipedia is pretty weak.
>>
>>There are languages where the cultural and political differences are 
>>quite big while there is no call for a split project. The Chinese and 
>>the Dutch wikipedias are good examples for this. It would be a good 
>>thing if you could find it in you to consider this and retract the 
>>application for a Montenegrin Wikipedia.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>    GerardM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>Gerard,
>
>I don't understand why you mis interpret my statement. Please notice 
>"and". Who advice you on this meter? Political background of languages 
>is undiscussable . There must be political background of language, as 
>there must be political will to make standard from people language. 
>Linguistics rules are just political will on people language. If you 
>ignore this your opinion will not be righteous. I will repeat my sentence:
>- Wikipedia is multilingual and multicultural project.
>
Being multilingual and multicultural does not mean that each language 
needs its own Bantustan.  South Africa already showed us that apartheid 
was a bankrupt system.  Post-colonial Africa had to accept that 
abandoning colonial boundaries in favour of a return to tribal areas 
would be a recipe for chaos.

To say that languages must be driven by politics is absurd.  Generally 
it works the other way.  Tribes develop their own way of talking, and 
use that as an excuse for making politics.

>As I sad, culture is connected with language, and culture is spread by 
>communication, beside other ways of communication language is primary one.
>
Culture is absolutely connected with language.  But a special language 
in a closed circle prevents the culture from being spread to any but 
those who already know the language.

> >.When you read the article
> >about Montenegrin, the language on the English Wikipedia, it explains
> >quite clearly that elements that are to make Montegrin special can be
> >found outside of Montenegro as well.
>
>Do you know what you talk about? Do you know who write those articles? 
>Do you know anything about specifics of Montenegrin dialect of south 
>slavenian languages?
>
I'm glad you use the word "dialect".  If you and a Serb speak with each 
other (preferably about a neutral topic) in your own dialects you each 
should be able to understand most of what the other is saying.  Thus 
they are dialects of the same language.  If you can't understand each 
other they are different languages.

>Split of project is not our concern (As Montenegrin people are never 
>participated on this projects or they tried on marginal level), you know 
>well  why is was divided on Balkan, but you stay quiet on this. Special 
>regarding Serbian. Wikipedia is used for spreading of nationalism and 
>now when Montenegrin wish to have their own wikipedia on their own 
>language, it become problem. AND yes it become POLITICAL problem for WMF 
>or one part of their members. I am aware that Serbian community is very 
>strong on WMF. But to this aspect of discussion is not place here. My 
>question is what argument do you have on this? Did you check them or you 
>just used POV to discuss on this topic?
>
Using Wikipedia to spread nationalism is absolutely contrary to a 
Neutral Point of View.  Wikipedia did start in the United States, but if 
the Americans who were involved at the earliest stages had insisted that 
Wikipedia was there to promote US nationalism it would have failed 
miserably in all other English-speaking countries.

Personally, I don't think that there should ever have been separate 
Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian wikipedias.  If any of them are using 
their respective projects to spread their own nationalism that is 
wrong.  As long as they have their own wikis nobody from within the 
Yugoslav communities will be willing to seriously criticise them for it, 
and nobody from outside the Yugoslav communities will understand the 
language enough to be able to do it.

I can understand that Montenegrins can feel prejudiced when the same 
mistake is not made for them as was made for the Serbians.

>Please, English is not my native language, and I don't see how you could 
>miss interpret my statement about multilingual and multi cultural nature 
>of wikipedia. Every language bring up cultural aspect and I don't see 
>how you could by-pass this.
>
Your use of English may have a few errors, but not enough to comment 
about, or to leave the impression that you are not making sense.  
(Neither Gerrard nor Yann are native English speakers.)  My own view of 
multiculturalism is typically Canadian, and that involves appreciating 
that a country is made up of many cultures that bring a rich diversity 
into a country.

>And again please return to the topic explain to me how you can be that 
>CLAIRVOYANCE and  assume that Montenegrin wikipedia will bring such bad 
>image to WMF . You don't have arguments for that. This is just showing 
>to me that you take POV. You just assume this with (for me) no 
>particular reason. So I can just guess here why you are doing this. 
>Please be more specific about your goals here, so I don't assume that 
>you just take POV here.
>
I don't think that bringing a bad image is a factor.  It's a broader 
question of linguistics.

>I am ready to participate on any level of discussion but please don't 
>make assumptions as that will bring bad connotation to your willingness 
>to do right thing in this case.
>
The only assumption there is that what you want is the right thing.

There is another alternative.  Start using the serbo-croatian (sh) 
Wikipedia.  It was the original Yugoslav project, and is still alive and 
well.

Ec