[Foundation-l] wikicouncil

[Birgitte SB]

"worst parts of old ideas"


* being a body of electors for determinng the election
of board members

This is bad idea which I have said alot about in the
archives.  I think it is the most useless reason for
creating a council.

*the approve/deny level of individual projects on a
week to week basis. That's where a Wikicouncil would
come in.

Week to week decisions should stay in the hands of the
communities.  Not be bumped up to some interproject
council.  

*Wikicouncil as "representative democracy" is closest
to what many Wikiretreaters in Frankfurt expressed 

Given a scope I agree on; I can support the idea of a
self-selecting council, I can support the idea of
using existing admin, bcrat or steward structure to
somehow build a council, I can grudingly support a
simple direct election.  I cannot support a
representative election.  First, I do not believe it
will be effective.  Second, I am certain it will be
the most problamatic method to implement.  The point
is to get people who really want to do council-work
(whatever that ends up being).  Not hand out feathers
for people to put in their caps.    


I don't see this as the community coming together to
form a council.  I am sorry, I just don't see that
when so much of the Wikimedia community is completely
unaware of this.  I just really feel this is being
done backwards.  You don't create a council to raise
awareness.  You raise awareness and then afterwards
you see how all the people would like to formalize
their participation.  There is not much participation
right now to formalize.  

*But the concept of a group of dedicated, trusted and
respected Wikimedians from the community who can
thoughtfully deliberate and help lead community
matters... I'm willing to hear how people view this as
a bad thing.

Who is saying THAT is a bad thing?  Why don't you just
do it?  Start Council meetings with an open
invitation.  Work at recruiting people from smaller
projects.  Ask people to list their top problems for a
voluntary review.  Issue reccomendations.  Then once
you know how it will work and what people want out of
it ... Then get it formalized.  If that happens it
then it would be "a formalization of what takes place
already".  I think you should go for it.  I think
wikicouncil, as a general concept, has potential.  I
do not think we should trying to come up with a
finished concept to write into the by-laws first,
however.

Birgitte SB

--- Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/20/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- Andrew Lih <andrew.lih at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Although there has already been a massive
> exchange
> > > in the last 12
> > > hours, I'm going to respond to the initial
> question.
> > > One problem is
> > > first mover (or first discusser) bias, and the
> > > entire conversation has
> > > gone down one way, when I think it's best to
> start
> > > with a fresh look.
> > >
> > > What Damian mentioned about Wikicouncil as
> > > "representative democracy"
> > > is closest to what many Wikiretreaters in
> Frankfurt
> > > expressed - that a
> > > body of experienced, learned, informed, engaged
> and
> > > knowledgeable
> > > Wikimedians from different projects could form a
> > > body with real powers
> > > to decide on community matters and even for the
> > > purpose of being a
> > > body of electors for determinng the election of
> > > board members.
> > >
> > > Wikicouncil folks would be responsible for
> things
> > > that  that either we
> > > (inappropriately) appeal to the "board of
> trustees"
> > > to do now, or ask
> > > developers to do on the fly. It's not fair to
> ask
> > > Brion or Tim to be
> > > decisionmaker for community decisions from
> random
> > > parts of the
> > > Wikimedia universe, and it's traditionally
> beyond
> > > the scope of a
> > > "Board of Trustees" to be managing down to the
> > > approve/deny level of
> > > individual projects on a week to week basis.
> That's
> > > where a
> > > Wikicouncil would come in.
> > >
> > > As for the argument that Wikicouncil would not
> be a
> > > "direct
> > > democracy," I mentioned this to Erik in
> Frankfurt,
> > > but I believe there
> > > is a less compelling argument for every
> Wikimedian
> > > having equal vote
> > > as any other Wikimedian for some value of "n"
> edits
> > > and "m" months of
> > > membership. The idea of every community member
> > > getting equal say as in
> > > a "true democracy" is not compelling since there
> is
> > > no concept of
> > > "natural citizenship" in Wikipedia - people join
> by
> > > choice, they
> > > self-identify for tasks, and they elevate. It is
> > > different than a
> > > citizen of a country or territory. As Damian
> noted,
> > > many folks don't
> > > know, nor do they care, for issues related to
> higher
> > > level governance
> > > or WMF board matters. They're there to write an
> > > encyclopedia, create a
> > > Wikiversity course, contribute to Commons, etc.
> A
> > > Wikicouncil would
> > > have the expertise of folks who have put in the
> > > time, passion, energy
> > > and thought into working with the WMF community
> > > matters, while the
> > > board would oversee the big picture matters. I
> > > believe that the
> > > Wikicouncil would clarify and solve many of the
> > > problems we have now
> > > with the scope of board and executive level
> matters.
> > >
> > > In this sense, I think the idea of a Wikicouncil
> is
> > > quite familiar -
> > > I'd imagine a Wikicouncil would be made up most
> of
> > > folks you will find
> > > right now in Wikiproject leadership, chapter
> > > activities, committee
> > > involvement, and the like. It would be a
> > > formalization of what takes
> > > place already, but where there is currently no
> > > procedure or authority
> > > to act on group consensus.
> > >
> > > That is a brief summary of what hopes I saw
> people
> > > had in the idea for
> > > a Wikicouncil. I cannot speak for all the folks,
> so
> > > I invite other
> > > folks to chime in on this.
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > >
> >
> > I have not said anything because I am open to this
> > idea being developed in previously undiscussed
> ways.
> > But the above statments I do not understand.  How
> is
> > this in any way similar to the ways things take
> place
> > already?  It strikes me as anything but familiar.
> >
> > I am willing to withold critiscism as people
> > brainstorm, but I find the above remarks quite
> > disturbing.  It is a few of the worst parts of old
> > ideas about the wikicouncil packaged as simply a
> > formalization of current process.  I am sorry
> these
> > ideas are in no way a representation of the way
> > current process works.
> 
> Maybe you can enlighten us on the "worst parts of
> old ideas about the
> Wikicouncil" because it's unclear what you're
> referring to.
> 
> My point is that the community coming together to
> decide on what the
> community should do is familiar, in contrast to a
> "top down" system of
> command given the questions we're facing of what
> role the board and
> the executive should take.  (Anthere or another
> group at the retreat
> called it "blob" simply to get away from the
> historical baggage of the
> Wikicouncil name. Perhaps that's a good idea.) The
> Wikicouncil/blob
> idea would build on what the community already does
> well but would
> provide the formal structure to enact decisions with
> authority. It's
> no panacea, and there are no specifics yet as to the
> makeup of or
> appointment to council members.
> 
> But the concept of a group of dedicated, trusted and
> respected
> Wikimedians from the community who can thoughtfully
> deliberate and
> help lead community matters... I'm willing to hear
> how people view
> this as a bad thing.
> 
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
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> 



 
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