[Foundation-l] Cleaning up Wikibooks

[Robert Scott Horning]

Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
>>There is a general tolerance of new content that goes onto Wikibooks, in
>>part because it is a smaller project and we are trying to attract and
>>keep contributors even if they add content that perhaps should be there.
>>    
>>
>
>This is a mistake, actually.  The best way to attract and keep new
>contributors is to have a clean and passionate mission which is kept as
>simple as possible.  Seeing tolerance for a "white power" racist tract
>(which went through a long vfd before finally being deleted after I saw
>it and complained, rather than deleting on sight and banning the creator
>as a racist vandal...) is a great way to drive away contributors -- the
>same goes for other cruft like "How to get a girl".
>
This is one area that we very much disagree.  I did not like this 
Wikibook in particular, and I'd also like to note that the time from 
when the VfD discussion started to when it ended was among one of 
shortest in the history of Wikibooks, not the longest.  I think this is 
a classic example of precisely how the Wikibooks community is working 
rather than how it is failing, as you seem to mention.  Also, I don't 
remember you complaining about this Wikibook at all until after it was 
already deleted.  BTW, have you seen the Wikipedia article on [[w:White 
nationalism]]?  Using this same logic, this article on Wikipedia should 
be deleted on the spot and all of the participants banned as well.

The "How to get a girl" debate is more a good example of how a VfD 
should not be handled, as it was against a particular section of a 
Wikibook than the whole project, and only part of it was deleted.  Most 
of the debate over that Wikibook was from before I became an admin and a 
regular participant on Wikibooks.  In many ways I'm sorry you were 
dragged into that argument.

>>"I'm happy to give more time, but these books are already candidates for
>>speedy deletion. The point is that, to give on example which was
>>thankfully already deleted, a racist white-power book is not a textbook,
>>never will be a textbook, and should have been deleted on site and the
>>creator banned for vandalism on site. --Jimbo Wales
>><http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales> 21:03, 13 November 2005
>>(UTC)"
>>
>>The user that added this white power book has otherwise done Wikibooks
>>quite a bit of good, and banning him would only make an enemy rather
>>than a useful contributor.
>>    
>>
>
>I very strongly disagree.  Wikibooks does not need such books, and it
>was an is an embarassment to see such a thing.
>
>--Jimbo
>  
>
So, do you have a personal beef against [[b:User:Zondor]]?  He has been 
active on both Wikipedia and Wikibooks, making some very useful 
contributions.  Perhaps a warning on his user talk page would be 
warrented, but to out right ban him ignoring the rest of his 
contributions?  I admit that the way he started this particular Wikibook.

Also, are you aware of the firestorm that this whole action has caused? 
 I want to share a couple of comments that have come my way from users 
looking to me for some leadership on Wikibooks:


    Future of Wikibooks...

Okay, I really /did/ get here at the wrong time. When Jimbo comes in to 
say something like he did, I assume he speaks for the entire Board. 
Unless another member of the Board comes in to refute Jimbo, I will 
continue to assume that this is the way the Wikimedia Foundation wants 
Wikibooks to go. I will not fight for something that I cannot see a good 
point fighting for. There is just so much /crap/ here. Even the mailing 
list couldn't provoke a Board member's opinion on the matter. I am just 
so fed up with all this crap. I /do/ think that you fail to assume good 
faith on Jimbo's part by saying it may be financially motivated. I just 
hate all this infighting and can't really keep it up. But until there is 
a definite ruling, I can't completely give it up either. I am so torn on 
this issue. And I am not sure that the community at-large can "overrule" 
Jimbo on this matter either. If we overrule him, why wouldn't he just 
say, "Okay, there is no more Wikibooks. Sorry. Shoulda played by the 
rules." and then just shut it off? Who knows. I'll be back later I 
guess. This whole thing stinks on ice. --LV 
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Lord_Voldemort> ^(Dark Mark) 
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Voldemort> 16:04, 21 
November 2005 (UTC)


    Settle this!!

You guys (Horning and friends) appear to be about as close to the center 
of decision making as we peons can access. I have't figured out how to 
contact Mr. Wales. At this point I almost don't care what the decision 
is about what is allowed and what is not, but I think in fairness to 
everyone, we need a decision and a clear definition of where lines will 
be drawn /*and enformcement from day one.*/ Any other way, we get people 
like myself wasting our time. What can I do to press for a decision???? 
Frog One <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Frog_One> 00:43, 23 November 
2005 (UTC)


I'm just a humble admin trying to keep this project together and to make 
this community something that we can all be proud of.  I have been 
vocal, and indeed I even went and deleted one of the Wikibooks that you, 
Mr. Wales, railed against and suggested that it be deleted at once?  Do 
you know what I got for my efforts at trying to delete [[b:Naturism]]? 
 The book was undeleted and now I am in an edit war with another admin 
over wheither this Wikibook should be restored.  My status as an admin 
is even being called into question, for enforcing a decision that _YOU_ 
made.  I guess I should have let you use your newly given admin status 
and waited for you to do the deletion yourself rather than taking arrows 
in my own back.

The #1 complaint I have here about this whole thing is not so much what 
you've done, but how you've done it, particularly in regard to changing 
policy without really explaining this policy change.  These decisions 
seem arbitrary, and now the community really doesn't know where to go 
from here.  I am asking you, Mr. Wales, to try and help smooth down the 
discussion, and help to determine just who and how community decisions 
to keep or delete content on Wikibooks should happen.  If you want to 
become more involved in that process, you are welcome, but I do think 
you should trust the participants who have spent many years working on 
this Wikimedia project.  Know that the future of this project is at 
stake as well, based on your actions here.

-- 
Robert Scott Horning