Hi all,
I wasn't able to make it to the meeting this time (it was at 5AM here), but I'd like to chat with you about possibilities for a Wikimedia/Wikiversity teamup with PlanetMath.org, where I'm on the board of directors. PlanetMath content has been used or cited in several hundreds of Wikipedia articles,
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=planet...
I think there are a lot of interesting possibilities for a more formal or structured collaboration, especially now that Wikiversity is on the scene.
To begin to frame my own interests and possible areas of involvement, here are a few slides I made for a talk I gave here at the Open University (where I'm a phd student at the Knowledge Media Institute), about "Crowdsourcing Education".
http://metameso.org/~joe/docs/crowdsourcing-continued.pdf
Towards the end of the slides, I suggest that an incremental step (still a very big increment, at this point) would be to create a for-credit class/course, e.g. something like Calculus I, to be completed entirely online, e.g. via Wikiversity and/or PlanetMath.
Another interesting idea along these lines would be to run a face-to-face computing/mathematics course whose purpose is "do something cool with PlanetMath" -- for example, help develop the platform that would make it possible to run semi-automated math courses (as in the previous paragraph), or other courses for that matter.
To sum up, I think PlanetMath may be in a good position to make a bid to become the "mathematics department" of Wikiversity -- but we'll need to talk more about details!
Joe
Joe, it sounds like a cool idea. Feel free to be bold and work on it. Who would be the college for the for-credit class?
The Wikiversity IRC channel is always open, and users are generally in there to talk further. You can also bring it up on the Colloquium on Wikiversity.
Good luck!
Geoffrey Plourde
________________________________ From: Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com To: Mailing list for Wikiversity wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 5:40:51 AM Subject: [Wikiversity-l] planetmath teamup?
Hi all,
I wasn't able to make it to the meeting this time (it was at 5AM here), but I'd like to chat with you about possibilities for a Wikimedia/Wikiversity teamup with PlanetMath.org, where I'm on the board of directors. PlanetMath content has been used or cited in several hundreds of Wikipedia articles,
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=planet...
I think there are a lot of interesting possibilities for a more formal or structured collaboration, especially now that Wikiversity is on the scene.
To begin to frame my own interests and possible areas of involvement, here are a few slides I made for a talk I gave here at the Open University (where I'm a phd student at the Knowledge Media Institute), about "Crowdsourcing Education".
http://metameso.org/~joe/docs/crowdsourcing-continued.pdf
Towards the end of the slides, I suggest that an incremental step (still a very big increment, at this point) would be to create a for-credit class/course, e.g. something like Calculus I, to be completed entirely online, e.g. via Wikiversity and/or PlanetMath.
Another interesting idea along these lines would be to run a face-to-face computing/mathematics course whose purpose is "do something cool with PlanetMath" -- for example, help develop the platform that would make it possible to run semi-automated math courses (as in the previous paragraph), or other courses for that matter.
To sum up, I think PlanetMath may be in a good position to make a bid to become the "mathematics department" of Wikiversity -- but we'll need to talk more about details!
Joe
_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Joe, it sounds like a cool idea. Feel free to be bold and work on it.
Definitely. I think that at this point "coalition building" is a reasonable objective. We have tons of *ideas*, but I think implementation is going to take somewhat broad-based support. I've been talking to the Teaching Open Source folks (http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Main_Page) and they like the idea.
Who would be the college for the for-credit class?
We're definitely still in "looking around" mode. As I mentioned, I'm at The Open University, UK, and I brought the idea up with some of the maths people here. But that was just yesterday and now I'm waiting to hear back. A more conventional college that nevertheless likes experimental/innovative courses might be a better bet. (Ideas welcome. CS or mathematics faculty champions especially welcome :)
The Wikiversity IRC channel is always open, and users are generally in there to talk further. You can also bring it up on the Colloquium on Wikiversity.
I anticipate a lot of large-scale issues around "Wiki versus Noosphere" (Noosphere is PlanetMath's hand-rolled collaboration platform). And in the long-term, I wonder whether the PlanetMath/Noosphere project can get folded into Wikimedia on an organizational level. So... there will be lots of things to talk about.
Joe,
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that the Wikimedia Board specifically doesn't want us (the participants) running certification/accredited classes under the Foundation's umbrella. This doesn't bar us from hosting them, (I'm designing one for a school right now), it just requires that a organization be willing to sponsor it. We are also working on a sandbox server which might be able to host a CMS like Moodle to expand on the wiki software.
Other projects have discussed collapsing into Wikimedia, but the community tends to be pretty reluctant about approving new projects. Wikiversity is the newest project, and was approved in 2006. It would probably be better to maintain a partnership, and perhaps have PlanetMath collapse into a new free university or something.
Geoffrey
________________________________ From: Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com To: Mailing list for Wikiversity wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 8:27:51 AM Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] planetmath teamup?
Joe, it sounds like a cool idea. Feel free to be bold and work on it.
Definitely. I think that at this point "coalition building" is a reasonable objective. We have tons of *ideas*, but I think implementation is going to take somewhat broad-based support. I've been talking to the Teaching Open Source folks (http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Main_Page) and they like the idea.
Who would be the college for the for-credit class?
We're definitely still in "looking around" mode. As I mentioned, I'm at The Open University, UK, and I brought the idea up with some of the maths people here. But that was just yesterday and now I'm waiting to hear back. A more conventional college that nevertheless likes experimental/innovative courses might be a better bet. (Ideas welcome. CS or mathematics faculty champions especially welcome :)
The Wikiversity IRC channel is always open, and users are generally in there to talk further. You can also bring it up on the Colloquium on Wikiversity.
I anticipate a lot of large-scale issues around "Wiki versus Noosphere" (Noosphere is PlanetMath's hand-rolled collaboration platform). And in the long-term, I wonder whether the PlanetMath/Noosphere project can get folded into Wikimedia on an organizational level. So... there will be lots of things to talk about.
_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Hi Geoffrey:
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that the Wikimedia Board specifically doesn't want us (the participants) running certification/accredited classes under the Foundation's umbrella. This doesn't bar us from hosting them, (I'm designing one for a school right now), it just requires that a organization be willing to sponsor it.
Sounds like a fine arrangement to me. Wikimedia is making a sensible decision here.
We are also working on a sandbox server which might be able to host a CMS like Moodle to expand on the wiki software.
That's a good plan. This has basically been the sticking point that has prevented me from trying to initiate an intensive "PlanetMath teamup" in the past. As I see it, what PlanetMath has to offer is heavily conditioned by (and upon) the features of our software. We're trying to build a completely state-of-the-art online mathematics collaboration facility. That's hard work and quite technical! The 'open content' that PlanetMath produces is only part of the picture. Another key aspect of things (which we haven't exactly nailed yet, though we're working on it), is "workflow" -- what some people might call "Open Educational Practices".
I can't say one way or another what advantages or disadvantages Moodle has versus other "similar" platforms -- because I simply don't know. I know that The Open University uses Moodle for OpenLearn (http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/ - CC-by-sa-nc). Other things to think about are Elgg and (PlanetMath's own) Noosphere -- and maybe especially how not to be limited by the chosen platform(s).
Other projects have discussed collapsing into Wikimedia, but the community tends to be pretty reluctant about approving new projects. Wikiversity is the newest project, and was approved in 2006. It would probably be better to maintain a partnership, and perhaps have PlanetMath collapse into a new free university or something.
Let's keep putting options on the table. I'm sure there are people at Wikimedia who are interested in collaborating on shaping this space -- I want to make sure that PlanetMath is involved in those conversations whenever that would be appropriate or useful.
Joe
i guess the model would probably planetmath people using the wikiversity site with local support; but of course there are enough qualified people on the wikiversity staff to help out with answering questions for calculus 1.
On 1 April 2010 18:51, Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Geoffrey:
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that the Wikimedia Board specifically doesn't want us (the participants) running certification/accredited classes under the Foundation's umbrella. This doesn't bar us from hosting them, (I'm designing one for a school right now), it just requires that a organization be willing to sponsor it.
Sounds like a fine arrangement to me. Wikimedia is making a sensible decision here.
We are also working on a sandbox server which might be able to host a CMS like Moodle to expand on the wiki software.
That's a good plan. This has basically been the sticking point that has prevented me from trying to initiate an intensive "PlanetMath teamup" in the past. As I see it, what PlanetMath has to offer is heavily conditioned by (and upon) the features of our software. We're trying to build a completely state-of-the-art online mathematics collaboration facility. That's hard work and quite technical! The 'open content' that PlanetMath produces is only part of the picture. Another key aspect of things (which we haven't exactly nailed yet, though we're working on it), is "workflow" -- what some people might call "Open Educational Practices".
I can't say one way or another what advantages or disadvantages Moodle has versus other "similar" platforms -- because I simply don't know. I know that The Open University uses Moodle for OpenLearn (http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/ - CC-by-sa-nc). Other things to think about are Elgg and (PlanetMath's own) Noosphere -- and maybe especially how not to be limited by the chosen platform(s).
Other projects have discussed collapsing into Wikimedia, but the community tends to be pretty reluctant about approving new projects. Wikiversity is the newest project, and was approved in 2006. It would probably be better to maintain a partnership, and perhaps have PlanetMath collapse into a new free university or something.
Let's keep putting options on the table. I'm sure there are people at Wikimedia who are interested in collaborating on shaping this space -- I want to make sure that PlanetMath is involved in those conversations whenever that would be appropriate or useful.
Joe
Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
i guess the model would probably planetmath people using the wikiversity site with local support;
Not sure what that entails, could you say more?
but of course there are enough qualified people on the wikiversity staff to help out with answering questions for calculus 1.
My long-term hope is to have PlanetMath provide free online access to the entire mathematics curriculum. If there is really a good solution for learning Calc 1 online, I think Wikiversity should definitely get behind it! PlanetMath doesn't yet provide the equivalent of even that one basic course, or even more basic courses like Algebra. ATM, PlanetMath is just a reference and discussion site.
Joe,
I'm definitely interested in keeping options open here. As Cormac has said, this project has the potential to realize some longstanding ideals of Wikiversity. I mentioned the community's reluctance because its something we would have to deal with if we decided to collapse PlanetMath under the Foundation's umbrella, and used Moodle as a example because its one of the biggest free CMSs available. We also will have room on sandbox server for other software, which should allow us to increase functionality.
Geoff
________________________________ From: Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com To: Mailing list for Wikiversity wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:51:34 AM Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] planetmath teamup?
Hi Geoffrey:
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that the Wikimedia Board specifically doesn't want us (the participants) running certification/accredited classes under the Foundation's umbrella. This doesn't bar us from hosting them, (I'm designing one for a school right now), it just requires that a organization be willing to sponsor it.
Sounds like a fine arrangement to me. Wikimedia is making a sensible decision here.
We are also working on a sandbox server which might be able to host a CMS like Moodle to expand on the wiki software.
That's a good plan. This has basically been the sticking point that has prevented me from trying to initiate an intensive "PlanetMath teamup" in the past. As I see it, what PlanetMath has to offer is heavily conditioned by (and upon) the features of our software. We're trying to build a completely state-of-the-art online mathematics collaboration facility. That's hard work and quite technical! The 'open content' that PlanetMath produces is only part of the picture. Another key aspect of things (which we haven't exactly nailed yet, though we're working on it), is "workflow" -- what some people might call "Open Educational Practices".
I can't say one way or another what advantages or disadvantages Moodle has versus other "similar" platforms -- because I simply don't know. I know that The Open University uses Moodle for OpenLearn (http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/ - CC-by-sa-nc). Other things to think about are Elgg and (PlanetMath's own) Noosphere -- and maybe especially how not to be limited by the chosen platform(s).
Other projects have discussed collapsing into Wikimedia, but the community tends to be pretty reluctant about approving new projects. Wikiversity is the newest project, and was approved in 2006. It would probably be better to maintain a partnership, and perhaps have PlanetMath collapse into a new free university or something.
Let's keep putting options on the table. I'm sure there are people at Wikimedia who are interested in collaborating on shaping this space -- I want to make sure that PlanetMath is involved in those conversations whenever that would be appropriate or useful.
Joe
_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Re: wikieducator. As far as I know, the only for credit courses being run are the teacher training units I set up. Facilitating Online, and Flexible Learning. Credit for these is offered through Otago Polytechnic and its partners. So its a simple matter of using the wiki to show how assessment is handled so that crediting bodies can see the integrity of their award being maintained.
Its early days yet, but I'm working at the uni of Canberra now with jtneill.
My idea is to create assessment schedules that self paced learners can refer to for developing up a "portfolio of evidence" that an institution can quickly and easily assess and award credit for.
All going well, I think this will dramatically reduce the cost of creditation for those able to self pace and direct their own learning, not to mention the flexibility.
Please get in touch if anyone else is thinking along these lines and how also has connections with an institution. An assessment schedule on wv that is recognised by multiple institutions would be particularly impressive.
On 02/04/2010 7:06 AM, "Geoffrey Plourde" geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
Joe,
I'm definitely interested in keeping options open here. As Cormac has said, this project has the potential to realize some longstanding ideals of Wikiversity. I mentioned the community's reluctance because its something we would have to deal with if we decided to collapse PlanetMath under the Foundation's umbrella, and used Moodle as a example because its one of the biggest free CMSs available. We also will have room on sandbox server for other software, which should allow us to increase functionality.
Geoff
________________________________ From: Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com To: Mailing list for Wi... *Sent:* Thu, April 1, 2010 3:51:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] planetmath teamup?
Hi Geoffrey:
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that
the
Wiki...
_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Please get in touch if anyone else is thinking along these lines and how also has connections with an institution. An assessment schedule on wv that is recognised by multiple institutions would be particularly impressive.
Brilliant idea. I'll work hard to find the right people at OU to talk to: I have some in mind.
Hi Joe, Geoffrey, all,
I like the idea of a collaboration with PlanetMath, and I also think it's a great idea to start thinking seriously about how to turn work done in Wikiversity and other online spaces into academic credit. On open accreditation, P2PU are doing some work on this, as (I think) are Wikieducator, and of course David Wiley has done some great work in the last two years or so. Wikiversity has long had these discussions, and a few proposed initiatives, but nothing concrete so far. Still, early days... :-)
I'm very interested in talking more. I've just finished my own PhD about Wikiversity's first two years of development as a learning space. :-)
Joe, I'm intrigued by your statement on your slides that PlanetMath might have "the most potential" for gaining academic credit. What do you mean here? Does PlanetMath have any institutional affiliations already set up that would facilitate this?
I think your OU contacts might be very useful. OU is forward-looking, and of course their OpenLearn initiative is very interested in pushing forward opportunities in the world of OER. I have contacts in OpenLearn if you want me to put you in touch. Also, on your request for CS people that might be interested, I don't know if they'd be interested, but I'm working with some of the people in the CS department in the University of Manchester (where I'm based, school of education) who are pretty open-minded.
Anyway, let's keep talking - thanks for the spark. :-)
Cormac
2010/3/31 Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com
Joe,
One of the issues with running a for credit class on Wikiversity is that the Wikimedia Board specifically doesn't want us (the participants) running certification/accredited classes under the Foundation's umbrella. This doesn't bar us from hosting them, (I'm designing one for a school right now), it just requires that a organization be willing to sponsor it. We are also working on a sandbox server which might be able to host a CMS like Moodle to expand on the wiki software.
Other projects have discussed collapsing into Wikimedia, but the community tends to be pretty reluctant about approving new projects. Wikiversity is the newest project, and was approved in 2006. It would probably be better to maintain a partnership, and perhaps have PlanetMath collapse into a new free university or something.
Geoffrey
*From:* Joe Corneli holtzermann17@gmail.com *To:* Mailing list for Wikiversity wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Sent:* Wed, March 31, 2010 8:27:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] planetmath teamup?
Joe, it sounds like a cool idea. Feel free to be bold and work on it.
Definitely. I think that at this point "coalition building" is a reasonable objective. We have tons of *ideas*, but I think implementation is going to take somewhat broad-based support. I've been talking to the Teaching Open Source folks (http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Main_Page) and they like the idea.
Who would be the college for the for-credit class?
We're definitely still in "looking around" mode. As I mentioned, I'm at The Open University, UK, and I brought the idea up with some of the maths people here. But that was just yesterday and now I'm waiting to hear back. A more conventional college that nevertheless likes experimental/innovative courses might be a better bet. (Ideas welcome. CS or mathematics faculty champions especially welcome :)
The Wikiversity IRC channel is always open, and users are generally in
there
to talk further. You can also bring it up on the Colloquium on
Wikiversity.
I anticipate a lot of large-scale issues around "Wiki versus Noosphere" (Noosphere is PlanetMath's hand-rolled collaboration platform). And in the long-term, I wonder whether the PlanetMath/Noosphere project can get folded into Wikimedia on an organizational level. So... there will be lots of things to talk about.
Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
Cormac:
Thanks for the note and the leads! I hope we'll be able to talk more about this stuff soon, and I'll try to follow up on the leads (including to your work) ASAP.
Quick comments to a couple of immediate things:
Joe, I'm intrigued by your statement on your slides that PlanetMath might have "the most potential" for gaining academic credit. What do you mean here? Does PlanetMath have any institutional affiliations already set up that would facilitate this?
Well, for one thing I don't mean to say that PlanetMath is the institution with the most potential in this regard, rather, I think that out of all the things we *can* -- and should -- pursue (e.g. partnering with nonprofits; collaborating with developer communities; working on software development; trying to support studying, teaching, and research "on our own"), this option -- working with people who can dispense academic credit -- just might be thing that we could get the most mileage out of pursuing. It's not that we have affiliations set up that would facilitate this -- rather, out of the list I mentioned, it's the one thing we *haven't* tried!
The rationale is pretty simple. We participated in Google Summer of Code 3 years running, out of which we got about 2 successful projects done. If we helped run a PlanetMath "class", I'd expect we could easily get 10 or 15 successful projects done in a year. We turned away at least that many people every year for GSoC, so I know that the student interest is out there.
Looking at it another way, the question I've been asking myself is: where are we going with this project? One of the answers *I* like is: "we will provide a real online mathematics education". For that to work well, it's likely that people would have to get credit for their work (unless we just want to provide "support" materials).
So there are (at least) two vectors pointing in this direction.
I think your OU contacts might be very useful. OU is forward-looking, and of course their OpenLearn initiative is very interested in pushing forward opportunities in the world of OER. I have contacts in OpenLearn if you want me to put you in touch. Also, on your request for CS people that might be interested, I don't know if they'd be interested, but I'm working with some of the people in the CS department in the University of Manchester (where I'm based, school of education) who are pretty open-minded. Anyway, let's keep talking - thanks for the spark. :-)
Yeah man.
Please do send me your OpenLearn contacts -- I find that the OpenLearn social structures a tad hard to navigate, and it always helps to have multiple points of entry.
Since we're both in the UK, I hope we'll be able to find *some* useful ways to collaborate. I'll be working on these things for the next three years so we should have some time :)
Joe
wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org