August 8, 2006
Hello:
Break out links-How are they done?
I would like to create an external link from my wiki to an external web site. I would like a new web browser to open up.
What is the wiki code I should use to perform this action?
For example, in HTML a breakout link code would look like this.
To read more about ice cream, please visit <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Cream" TARGET="_blank">here</A>
How do I make a break out link to open a new browser window from a wiki?
To read more about ice cream, please visit [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Cream here].
The above wiki code will not open a new web browser.
I look forward to your response!
David Spencer
On 8/8/06, David Spencer, MediaWiki User wikipedia.org@davidspencer.ca wrote:
August 8, 2006
Hello:
Break out links-How are they done?
They aren't. You'd have to hack the software. This is a deliberate design decision, I believe: the user's browser gives them ways to decide where to open a link, and overriding them should be unnecessary. Let the user decide whether they want a new window or not.
On 8/8/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
They aren't. You'd have to hack the software. This is a deliberate design decision, I believe: the user's browser gives them ways to decide where to open a link, and overriding them should be unnecessary. Let the user decide whether they want a new window or not.
Just because I'm controversial I'll disagree. Gmail, for example, always opens *every* external link in a new window. It works extremely well - you never have to worry about "losing your gmail window". It wouldn't be a bad thing if MediaWiki did similar - you're unlikely to really want to navigate away from Wikipedia, for instance, when you follow a link - most likely you'll read it then want to come back.
The user's browser can override any behaviour, but that's not to say that providing good default behaviour isn't necessary.
Steve
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
Just because I'm controversial I'll disagree. Gmail, for example, always opens *every* external link in a new window. It works extremely well - you never have to worry about "losing your gmail window". It wouldn't be a bad thing if MediaWiki did similar - you're unlikely to really want to navigate away from Wikipedia, for instance, when you follow a link - most likely you'll read it then want to come back.
The user's browser can override any behaviour, but that's not to say that providing good default behaviour isn't necessary.
Gmail is a special case because it makes such heavy use of Ajax, which isn't typically stored in the browser history in case you want to go back. But as for the general rule, it would be true that providing good defaults is a must, except that browsers tend not to provide as effortless a way to stay in the same window as to open a new one.
For instance, in Firefox I can middle-click on a link to open it in a new tab, regardless of where it would normally go, but if I want to stay in the same window when clicking a target="_blank" I have to 1) realize that it will open a new window beforehand and 2) select "Open in this tab" from the context menu, which is only even possible due to an extension. It's annoying. The Web would be a better place if there were no default-target specifications: I know what I want to open in a new window, you don't.
On 8/8/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
For instance, in Firefox I can middle-click on a link to open it in a new tab, regardless of where it would normally go, but if I want to stay in the same window when clicking a target="_blank" I have to 1) realize that it will open a new window beforehand and 2) select "Open in this tab" from the context menu, which is only even possible due to an extension. It's annoying. The Web would be a better place if there were no default-target specifications: I know what I want to open in a new window, you don't.
That annoyance rings a bell, but I don't seem to have it - just using 1.0.7 here, and ctrl+click on "break out" links works fine (like in gmail for instance). I've got a couple of extensions, but afaik, that's just the normal behaviour.
I'm starting to think that "break out" for *all* external links would be a good default for all my browsing, and a modifier to reuse the same window would be handy on those rare instances. *shrug*
Steve
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
That annoyance rings a bell, but I don't seem to have it - just using 1.0.7 here, and ctrl+click on "break out" links works fine (like in gmail for instance).
Right, but try opening it in the same *tab*.
On 8/9/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
That annoyance rings a bell, but I don't seem to have it - just using 1.0.7 here, and ctrl+click on "break out" links works fine (like in gmail for instance).
Right, but try opening it in the same *tab*.
Err, I mean ctrl+click opens it in a new tab. I'm not sure why I'd want to open another window in the *same* tab. I think with new FF you can drag/drop the other tab back onto the first. Fwiw, the extension that highlights external links differently is awesome and highly recommended...
Anyway.
From Jay: Oh, <elitist>and anyone who "loses their gmail" window is <strike>too
stupid to breathe</strike> in need of some basic training in how their tools work.</elitist>
Consider my use of "lose" in the sense of "losing your keyboard under a pile of paper". Not irretrievable loss, just temporary inaccessibility.
Now, back to pointing out trivial bugs in the software...
Steve
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 01:22:06AM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/9/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
That annoyance rings a bell, but I don't seem to have it - just using 1.0.7 here, and ctrl+click on "break out" links works fine (like in gmail for instance).
Right, but try opening it in the same *tab*.
Err, I mean ctrl+click opens it in a new tab. I'm not sure why I'd want to open another window in the *same* tab. I think with new FF you can drag/drop the other tab back onto the first. Fwiw, the extension that highlights external links differently is awesome and highly recommended...
Because lots of people do *not* want the website breaking the customary semantics of a link (take this browser window to the new place).
From Jay: Oh, <elitist>and anyone who "loses their gmail" window is <strike>too
stupid to breathe</strike> in need of some basic training in how their tools work.</elitist>
Consider my use of "lose" in the sense of "losing your keyboard under a pile of paper". Not irretrievable loss, just temporary inaccessibility.
Yeah, I had that. Hence my pre-emptive strike of labelling it elitist. (Though why expecting people to be competent in using their tools is elitest these days eludes me -- what is this, high school?)
Cheers, -- jra
There is a simple answer on the question: Look at the definition of attributes for the a-element in XHTML Strict, you won't find the target-element there.
XHTML (which MediaWiki is supposed to deliver i think) is designed to be platform-indepentend, this means it can be displayed at any media, be it a console or a three dimensional hologram (if that was possible). As there are no windows in some of these medias, target has no reason to exist, just like the <font>-tag etc. That's also why CSS exists.
On the question of wether it is overidable or not.. Firefox (and therefore most gecko-browser) do have a configuration-option which forces to open ANY link in the same windows (or tab in the context of tabbed browsing). MIddle-Clicking will always open it in a new tab.
But that is now possible in any browser. For example in Internet Explorer it is really annoying when pages popup in a new window... on the other hand it is not as easy as in firefox to open a page in a new window in MSIE. I guess there are at least 2 clicks needed to perform that.
regards, Warhog
Simetrical schrieb:
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
Just because I'm controversial I'll disagree. Gmail, for example, always opens *every* external link in a new window. It works extremely well - you never have to worry about "losing your gmail window". It wouldn't be a bad thing if MediaWiki did similar - you're unlikely to really want to navigate away from Wikipedia, for instance, when you follow a link - most likely you'll read it then want to come back.
The user's browser can override any behaviour, but that's not to say that providing good default behaviour isn't necessary.
Gmail is a special case because it makes such heavy use of Ajax, which isn't typically stored in the browser history in case you want to go back. But as for the general rule, it would be true that providing good defaults is a must, except that browsers tend not to provide as effortless a way to stay in the same window as to open a new one.
For instance, in Firefox I can middle-click on a link to open it in a new tab, regardless of where it would normally go, but if I want to stay in the same window when clicking a target="_blank" I have to 1) realize that it will open a new window beforehand and 2) select "Open in this tab" from the context menu, which is only even possible due to an extension. It's annoying. The Web would be a better place if there were no default-target specifications: I know what I want to open in a new window, you don't.
See also: http://bugs.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3213 _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
----- Original Message ----- From: "Warhog (aja Julian Fleischer)" mediazilla@warhog.net To: "Wikimedia developers" wikitech-l@wikimedia.org Sent: 09 August 2006 00:33 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Break out links-How are they done?
But that is now possible in any browser. For example in Internet Explorer it is really annoying when pages popup in a new window... on the other hand it is not as easy as in firefox to open a page in a new window in MSIE. I guess there are at least 2 clicks needed to perform
that.
Not true - Shift-Click opens in a new window.
- Mark Clements (HappyDog)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Moin,
On Wednesday 09 August 2006 01:56, HappyDog wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Warhog (aja Julian Fleischer)" mediazilla@warhog.net To: "Wikimedia developers" wikitech-l@wikimedia.org Sent: 09 August 2006 00:33 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Break out links-How are they done?
But that is now possible in any browser. For example in Internet Explorer it is really annoying when pages popup in a new window... on the other hand it is not as easy as in firefox to open a page in a new window in MSIE. I guess there are at least 2 clicks needed to perform
that.
Not true - Shift-Click opens in a new window.
Mouse middle click opens the page in a new tab (!) for me in firefox - left click in the same tab. (Who wants a new browser windows, anyway?)
To original poster:
So let _me_ decide where I open up links, and stop trying to force me.
best wishes,
Tels
- -- Signed on Wed Aug 9 18:15:07 2006 with key 0x93B84C15. Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/ PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.
"I'm not a vegetarian, but I eat animals who are" -- Groucho Marx
On 8/9/06, Tels nospam-abuse@bloodgate.com wrote:
Mouse middle click opens the page in a new tab (!) for me in firefox - left click in the same tab. (Who wants a new browser windows, anyway?)
I tend to use new windows for new "themes" (work vs personal browsing, Wikipedia vs organising a holiday). 2-3 browser windows is a good total number.
So let _me_ decide where I open up links, and stop trying to force me.
Since we've established that you can override the suggestion provided to the browser, no one's forcing anything...
Steve
On 8/9/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
Since we've established that you can override the suggestion provided to the browser, no one's forcing anything...
I missed where we established how an average user (IE or unextended Firefox, say, with default settings) is supposed to a) determine in advance that a link will open in a new window/tab and b) override the behavior and open it in the same window/tab. I can do the latter via a Firefox extension, but even that requires two clicks plus picking an option out of a context menu rather than just middle-clicking.
On 8/10/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
I missed where we established how an average user (IE or unextended Firefox, say, with default settings) is supposed to a) determine in advance that a link will open in a new window/tab and b) override the behavior and open it in the same window/tab. I can do the latter via a Firefox extension, but even that requires two clicks plus picking an option out of a context menu rather than just middle-clicking.
Ok, you win.
Steve
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 06:21:37PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
So let _me_ decide where I open up links, and stop trying to force me.
Since we've established that you can override the suggestion provided to the browser, no one's forcing anything...
Again, Steve, no, you can't. If the link says TARGET=new, I am no aware of any unmodified browser that will permit you to override that. In Firefox, you can ctrl-click it, and get it in a new tab, but there's no way I'm aware of to get it in *the current tab*.
If you know of anything, please share.
Cheers, -- jra
On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 11:19:13AM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 06:21:37PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
So let _me_ decide where I open up links, and stop trying to force me.
Since we've established that you can override the suggestion provided to the browser, no one's forcing anything...
Again, Steve, no, you can't. If the link says TARGET=new, I am no aware of any unmodified browser that will permit you to override that. In Firefox, you can ctrl-click it, and get it in a new tab, but there's no way I'm aware of to get it in *the current tab*.
If you know of anything, please share.
Apologies; I didn't read far enough down the thread.
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/10/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
Again, Steve, no, you can't. If the link says TARGET=new, I am no aware of any unmodified browser that will permit you to override that. In Firefox, you can ctrl-click it, and get it in a new tab, but there's no way I'm aware of to get it in *the current tab*.
I was wrong. You were right.
Steve
Having said that, actually it's easy: drag and drop the link onto the address bar. Try it!
Steve
On 8/10/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/10/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
Again, Steve, no, you can't. If the link says TARGET=new, I am no aware of any unmodified browser that will permit you to override that. In Firefox, you can ctrl-click it, and get it in a new tab, but there's no way I'm aware of to get it in *the current tab*.
I was wrong. You were right.
Steve
On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 05:26:37PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
Having said that, actually it's easy: drag and drop the link onto the address bar. Try it!
You're correct; that would do it.
Now, can we convince FireFox to warn us like it used to?
Cheers, -- jra
in firefox and konqueror it is possible, i think it should be possible this way in MSIE too, but i guess very few people are aware of it.
you can dran and drop any link to any tab/window where you want it to be opened. That way you can override "open in new window". In MSIE i thin kyou have to drag it to the adressbar or the title-bar of the window, i'm not sure. in KOnqueror and Firefox you simply pull it onto the current tab. If you configured firefox to not show only one tab i don't know what to do. I think pull it to the locationbar will help there to.
Jay R. Ashworth schrieb:
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 06:21:37PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
So let _me_ decide where I open up links, and stop trying to force me.
Since we've established that you can override the suggestion provided to the browser, no one's forcing anything...
Again, Steve, no, you can't. If the link says TARGET=new, I am no aware of any unmodified browser that will permit you to override that. In Firefox, you can ctrl-click it, and get it in a new tab, but there's no way I'm aware of to get it in *the current tab*.
If you know of anything, please share.
Cheers, -- jra
On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 11:11:47PM +0200, Warhog (aja Julian Fleischer) wrote:
in firefox and konqueror it is possible, i think it should be possible this way in MSIE too, but i guess very few people are aware of it.
you can dran and drop any link to any tab/window where you want it to be opened. That way you can override "open in new window". In MSIE i thin kyou have to drag it to the adressbar or the title-bar of the window, i'm not sure. in KOnqueror and Firefox you simply pull it onto the current tab. If you configured firefox to not show only one tab i don't know what to do. I think pull it to the locationbar will help there to.
Yeah, Steve pointed that out too, immediately after.
And it's correct, but sort of esoteric.
Much more annoying, though, as I noted, is that Firefox seems to have last the status bar "(opens in a new window)" that Netscape used to provide. Don't know why.
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/8/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/8/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
Just because I'm controversial I'll disagree. Gmail, for example, always opens *every* external link in a new window. It works extremely well - you never have to worry about "losing your gmail window". It wouldn't be a bad thing if MediaWiki did similar - you're unlikely to really want to navigate away from Wikipedia, for instance, when you follow a link - most likely you'll read it then want to come back.
The user's browser can override any behaviour, but that's not to say that providing good default behaviour isn't necessary.
Gmail is a special case because it makes such heavy use of Ajax, which isn't typically stored in the browser history in case you want to go back. But as for the general rule, it would be true that providing good defaults is a must, except that browsers tend not to provide as effortless a way to stay in the same window as to open a new one.
More importantly, what percentage of people use wikipedia as a hub like they do gmail?
I typically visit through on my way to bigger and better things - and don't really care if I lose my window. With gmail, it's a hub page for me (I run my life out of it) and the view I have open is stateful. These things don't apply to mediawiki, unless I'm editing, in which case I'm not likely to be clicking new links from that window. Even on the intranet instance of it I run, I'm perfectly content for it to link in the same window - if I happen to want it to be otherwise, I can control-click, use a context menu, etc.
For a highly interactive site, new-windows make sense... but I don't really see it making sense for MW.
On 8/9/06, Ben Garney beng@garagegames.com wrote:
my life out of it) and the view I have open is stateful. These things don't apply to mediawiki, unless I'm editing, in which case I'm not likely to be clicking new links from that window. Even on the intranet instance of it I run, I'm perfectly content for it to link in the same window - if I happen to want it to be otherwise, I can control-click, use a context menu, etc.
For a highly interactive site, new-windows make sense... but I don't really see it making sense for MW.
Ah. Wikipedia is very much a "hub" for me, as is another wiki run at work. Once they're open, they don't get closed for weeks.
Steve
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 10:44:25PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/8/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
They aren't. You'd have to hack the software. This is a deliberate design decision, I believe: the user's browser gives them ways to decide where to open a link, and overriding them should be unnecessary. Let the user decide whether they want a new window or not.
Just because I'm controversial I'll disagree. Gmail, for example, always opens *every* external link in a new window. It works extremely well - you never have to worry about "losing your gmail window". It wouldn't be a bad thing if MediaWiki did similar - you're unlikely to really want to navigate away from Wikipedia, for instance, when you follow a link - most likely you'll read it then want to come back.
The user's browser can override any behaviour, but that's not to say that providing good default behaviour isn't necessary.
The user can *not*, in fact, override "open in a new window", and newer versions of FireFox (to my annoyance), don't even warn you.
That said, I'm all about configurability.
There's some javascript floating around that you can hang on the onblur ov a checkbox on your page that walks the DOM and toggles this flag on all A HREF links; that's my preferred approach.
Oh, <elitist>and anyone who "loses their gmail" window is <strike>too stupid to breathe</strike> in need of some basic training in how their tools work.</elitist>
Cheers, -- jra
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org