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Ken Snider

19 Oct 2013 19 Oct '13

4:05 a.m.

The Wikimedia Foundation's Technical Operations team is seeking proposals on the provisioning of a new data-centre facility. After working through the specifics internally, we now have a public RFP posted[1] and ready for proposals. We invite any organization meeting the requirements outlined to submit a proposal for review. Most of the relevant details are in the document itself, but feel free to reach out to myself or the list should anyone have any questions. Please, feel free to forward this link far and wide - have colleagues, contacts or friends in the data-centre sector? Then please, forward it on! :) Thanks! --Ken. [1] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/RFP/2013_Datacenter

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rupert THURNER

19 Oct 19 Oct

4:27 a.m.

Hi, would you be open to a data center outside the US in future, and if no, why not? Rupert Am 18.10.2013 22:05 schrieb "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:

...

Ken Snider

4:33 a.m.

Hi Rupert, We'd be open to any jurisdiction that provides an appropriate legal foundation for our operations, as well as meeting our technical and topographic needs. However for this specific proposal, we're looking for a US-centric location that can serve as a backup should our Ashburn location fail, among other uses. Thanks. --Ken. On Oct 18, 2013, at 4:27 PM, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi, would you be open to a data center outside the US in future, and if no, why not? Rupert Am 18.10.2013 22:05 schrieb "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Maarten Dammers

6:17 p.m.

Hi Ken, Op 18-10-2013 22:05, Ken Snider schreef:

...

You have stated some technical requirements, but not the availability you would like to have. You probably want to include that you're looking for a tier-4 data center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_4_data_center#Data_center_tiers). Is this one going to replace the Florida data center? Where are you keeping documentation these days? The information on wikitech seems to be very incomplete and outdated. Something related: While travelling in China I noticed the bad performance of our sites. Would it be a good idea to investigate this (lack of) performance and maybe consider a caching site somewhere in Asia? The latency should be much better than getting is all the way from the USA. http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/GLIF_5-11_World_4k.jpg (from http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/) gives a good idea of connectivity by the way. Maarten

Leslie Carr

6:59 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl> wrote:

...

Hi Ken, Op 18-10-2013 22:05, Ken Snider schreef:

Wikitech is our best source of documentation....

...

Something related: While travelling in China I noticed the bad performance of our sites. Would it be a good idea to investigate this (lack of) performance and maybe consider a caching site somewhere in Asia? The latency should be much better than getting is all the way from the USA. http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/GLIF_5-11_World_4k.jpg (from http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/) gives a good idea of connectivity by the way.

(Employee hat) - we are starting to move some of the Asian traffic to a new caching center on the US west coast, which has helped latency. (Personal hat) - I would love to get an Asian caching center (Hong Kong or Tokyo would be my top 2 choices), but IMHO the biggest barrier to this the time and availability of people resources.

...

Maarten _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

Gerard Meijssen

7:18 p.m.

Hoi, Are some of our partners in Wikipedia Zero not caching already ? Thanks, GerardM On 19 October 2013 12:59, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl> wrote:

Hi Ken, Op 18-10-2013 22:05, Ken Snider schreef: > The Wikimedia Foundation's Technical Operations team is seeking

proposals

> on the provisioning of a new data-centre facility. > > After working through the specifics internally, we now have a public RFP > posted[1] and ready for proposals. We invite any organization meeting

the

requirements outlined to submit a proposal for review.

You have stated some technical requirements, but not the availability you would like to have. You probably want to include that you're looking for

tier-4 data center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_4_data_center#Data_center_tiers). Is this one going to replace the Florida data center? Where are you keeping documentation these days? The information on wikitech seems to be very incomplete and outdated.

Wikitech is our best source of documentation....

Something related: While travelling in China I noticed the bad

performance

of our sites. Would it be a good idea to investigate this (lack of) performance and maybe consider a caching site somewhere in Asia? The

latency

should be much better than getting is all the way from the USA. http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/GLIF_5-11_World_4k.jpg (from http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/) gives a good idea of

connectivity by

the way.

Maarten _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Leslie Carr

7:25 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hoi, Are some of our partners in Wikipedia Zero not caching already ? Thanks, GerardM

Are you asking if they have varnish caches (they do not) or if they are using some web caching on their environment (which is possible, using transparent proxies , though I do not know of providers who use them... however my mobile web ecosystem knowledge is limited)

...

On 19 October 2013 12:59, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl> wrote:

Hi Ken, Op 18-10-2013 22:05, Ken Snider schreef: > The Wikimedia Foundation's Technical Operations team is seeking

proposals

the

requirements outlined to submit a proposal for review.

You have stated some technical requirements, but not the availability you would like to have. You probably want to include that you're looking for

Wikitech is our best source of documentation....

Something related: While travelling in China I noticed the bad

performance

of our sites. Would it be a good idea to investigate this (lack of) performance and maybe consider a caching site somewhere in Asia? The

latency

should be much better than getting is all the way from the USA. http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/GLIF_5-11_World_4k.jpg (from http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/) gives a good idea of

connectivity by

the way.

Maarten _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

Gerard Meijssen

7:39 p.m.

Hoi, I am not so much interested in what they use. What I would like to suggest is that we have partners in both Africa and Asia. They are likely to have the expertise to run a caching centre on our behalf. They provide us a service in bringing Wikipedia at no cost to their customers. When we pay them to run a non-discriminatory caching service, it would increase our service and maybe even the cost of transatlantic traffic. Thanks, GerardM On 19 October 2013 13:25, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hoi, Are some of our partners in Wikipedia Zero not caching already ? Thanks, GerardM

On 19 October 2013 12:59, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl> > wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > > > Op 18-10-2013 22:05, Ken Snider schreef: > > > >> The Wikimedia Foundation's Technical Operations team is seeking > proposals > >> on the provisioning of a new data-centre facility. > >> > >> After working through the specifics internally, we now have a public

RFP

> >> posted[1] and ready for proposals. We invite any organization meeting > the > >> requirements outlined to submit a proposal for review. > > > > You have stated some technical requirements, but not the availability

you

> > would like to have. You probably want to include that you're looking

for

> a > > tier-4 data center > > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_4_data_center#Data_center_tiers).

> > this one going to replace the Florida data center? Where are you

keeping

documentation these days? The information on wikitech seems to be very incomplete and outdated.

Wikitech is our best source of documentation....

Something related: While travelling in China I noticed the bad

performance

of our sites. Would it be a good idea to investigate this (lack of) performance and maybe consider a caching site somewhere in Asia? The

latency

should be much better than getting is all the way from the USA. http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/GLIF_5-11_World_4k.jpg (from http://www.glif.is/publications/maps/) gives a good idea of

connectivity by

the way.

Maarten _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Leslie Carr

7:44 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Running a mobile network is completely different operation from running a CDN. -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

Maarten Dammers

7:47 p.m.

Op 19-10-2013 12:59, Leslie Carr schreef:

...

Wikitech is our best source of documentation....

Ouch, time for a little documentation sprint?

...

(Employee hat) - we are starting to move some of the Asian traffic to a new caching center on the US west coast, which has helped latency.

I guess that's the one in San Francisco? That's already a lot closer than US east coast, but would it be enough?

...

(Personal hat) - I would love to get an Asian caching center (Hong Kong or Tokyo would be my top 2 choices), but IMHO the biggest barrier to this the time and availability of people resources.

I agree. Would be nice to connect to http://www.ams-ix.hk/ too :-) This is in the strategic plan: "Deploy additional caching centers in key locations to serve growing audiences in Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East." [1] so allocating resources to this should be a valid choice. Maarten [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Movement_Strategic_Plan_Summa…

Gerard Meijssen

7:50 p.m.

Before it is send to a mobile phone, the data has to be retrieved in the classic way. Do you really think that the companies who run mobile network do not have the expertise to keep a bunch of caching servers in the air ? When you do, do you think that all these mobile operators do not have that skill? Do you think they do not have capacity at the key locations of the Internet infrastructure? Thanks, GerardM On 19 October 2013 13:44, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hoi, I am not so much interested in what they use. What I would like to

suggest

is that we have partners in both Africa and Asia. They are likely to have the expertise to run a caching centre on our behalf. They provide us a service in bringing Wikipedia at no cost to their customers. When we pay them to run a non-discriminatory caching service, it would increase our service and maybe even the cost of transatlantic traffic. Thanks, GerardM

Running a mobile network is completely different operation from running a CDN. -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Leslie Carr

7:52 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Before it is send to a mobile phone, the data has to be retrieved in the classic way.

As an engineer I do know how the internet works ;) Do you really think that the companies who run mobile network

...

do not have the expertise to keep a bunch of caching servers in the air ? When you do, do you think that all these mobile operators do not have that skill? Do you think they do not have capacity at the key locations of the Internet infrastructure?

That is exactly what I think.

...

Thanks, GerardM On 19 October 2013 13:44, Leslie Carr <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hoi, I am not so much interested in what they use. What I would like to

suggest

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

MZMcBride

8:01 p.m.

Ken Snider wrote:

...

Hi. I'm pretty confused how this RFP relates to the "ulsfo" datacenter. As far as I know, "ulsfo" is not being proposed, it's already been approved. Is this RFP intended for an additional new datacenter somewhere in the U.S.? I looked at <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_servers#Hosting> to try to gain clarity. MZMcBride

Leslie Carr

8:09 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 3:01 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

...

Ken Snider wrote:

ulsfo is a caching center (varnish + LVS servers, but no backend infrastructure and very few machines)

...

MZMcBride _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

MZMcBride

8:29 p.m.

Leslie Carr wrote:

...

ulsfo is a caching center (varnish + LVS servers, but no backend infrastructure and very few machines)

Thank you for clarifying a bit. That helps. Is this new datacenter intended to be more like eqiad, then? And (echoing Maarten's question) will this new datacenter replace pmtpa? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this at a very high level. :-) MZMcBride

Leslie Carr

8:34 p.m.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 3:29 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

...

Leslie Carr wrote:

ulsfo is a caching center (varnish + LVS servers, but no backend infrastructure and very few machines)

Thank you for clarifying a bit. That helps. Is this new datacenter intended to be more like eqiad, then? And (echoing Maarten's question) will this new datacenter replace pmtpa?

Yes to both!

...

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this at a very high level. :-) MZMcBride _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

George William Herbert

20 Oct 20 Oct

4:19 a.m.

On Oct 19, 2013, at 3:17 AM, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl> wrote:

...

You probably want to include that you're looking for a tier-4 data center

This is more marketing-foo than realistic. I have had longer-than-expected-max outages in every datacenter I've had systems in save one (which is luck, not extra robustness). Every time I site survey a "tier 4" I can find vulnerabilities. -george william herbert george.herbert(a)gmail.com Sent from Kangphone

Dan Garry

21 Oct 21 Oct

8:32 p.m.

I may just be spouting nonsense, but I've heard a few separate people mention to me that Iceland is an increasingly attractive place for hosting, as they're in the Schengen area (making it easy to get to) but *not* in the European Union (so not subject to EU laws on hosting data), it's got a lot of green energy, and cooling is cheaper because it's cold there. If this is actually just hyperbole, I'd appreciate if someone told me why that is so, so that I can tell my friends why they're wrong! :-) Dan On 18 October 2013 21:05, Ken Snider <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform Wikimedia Foundation

Risker

9:43 p.m.

Iceland is cool (in just about every sense of the word!), but I'm not sure it does a lot of good for our users in the most difficult-to-serve areas: Asia, Africa, South America. (Notice the parallels with the "global south" areas.) It might be helpful for the Middle East. I think it is easy to forget how well-serviced we are in North America and Europe; however, being in Hong Kong this year reinforced to me that even very good service there is not much better than "Western" dial-up. That becomes increasingly challenging as we add more and more "mandatory" javascript to every page that is opened. Risker On 21 October 2013 08:32, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

on!

:) Thanks! --Ken. [1] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/RFP/2013_Datacenter _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Jeremy Baron

9:49 p.m.

On Oct 21, 2013 8:32 AM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

I may just be spouting nonsense, but I've heard a few separate people mention to me that Iceland is an increasingly attractive place for

hosting,

...

as they're in the Schengen area (making it easy to get to) but *not* in

the

...

European Union (so not subject to EU laws on hosting data), it's got a lot of green energy, and cooling is cheaper because it's cold there.

Siebrand Mazeland (WMF)

9:55 p.m.

This thread is getting off topic. As stated before: The RFC is for a datacenter in the United States. Can we please fork this thread for discussing: * What different copyright related implications datacenters in countries other than the United States have * What the consequences are for latency of datacenters that are not on the US west coast for certain countries, continents or areas Thanks. On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy(a)tuxmachine.com> wrote:

...

On Oct 21, 2013 8:32 AM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I may just be spouting nonsense, but I've heard a few separate people mention to me that Iceland is an increasingly attractive place for

hosting,

as they're in the Schengen area (making it easy to get to) but *not* in

the

European Union (so not subject to EU laws on hosting data), it's got a

lot

of green energy, and cooling is cheaper because it's cold there.

And how is the copyright situation? is there a counterpart to fair use (and is it as broad as in US?) or CDA 230? Anyway, Iceland irrelevant for this particular RFP (AIUI) but maybe it would be considered in a future req. -Jeremy _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Siebrand Mazeland Product Manager Language Engineering Wikimedia Foundation M: +31 6 50 69 1239 Skype: siebrand Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

Jay Ashworth

10:22 p.m.

----- Original Message -----

...

From: "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>

...

After working through the specifics internally, we now have a public RFP posted[1] and ready for proposals. We invite any organization meeting the requirements outlined to submit a proposal for review.

My snap reaction, Ken, is that the RFP seems fairly thin on relevant details; how many passes did it go through before you posted it? How much input came from the Ashburn project? Equinix Tampa? Or was it left loose on purpose, to see what people would come up with? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra(a)baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274

Leslie Carr

10:52 p.m.

I'm curious which details you would like to see? On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 5:22 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra(a)baylink.com> wrote:

...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>

-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

Jay Ashworth

10:56 p.m.

Well, perhaps I'm unfairly comparing the RFP's density to that of the last two colo contracts I saw, but I'm not sure I have a copy of those; I will take a look, and abide until them. Cheers, -- jra ----- Original Message -----

...

From: "Leslie Carr" <lcarr(a)wikimedia.org> To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 10:52:36 AM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] 2013 Datacenter RFP - open for submissions I'm curious which details you would like to see? On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 5:22 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra(a)baylink.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>

-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra(a)baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274

George William Herbert

11:59 p.m.

This is the RFP, not contract. It's industry typical for information needed to decide if followup and then site visit are called for, for particular potential vendors. -george william herbert george.herbert(a)gmail.com Sent from Kangphone On Oct 21, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Jay Ashworth <jra(a)baylink.com> wrote:

...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ken Snider" <ksnider(a)wikimedia.org>

-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra(a)baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274 _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Ken Snider

22 Oct 22 Oct

3:27 a.m.

On Oct 21, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Jay Ashworth <jra(a)baylink.com> wrote:

...

Well, perhaps I'm unfairly comparing the RFP's density to that of the last two colo contracts I saw, but I'm not sure I have a copy of those; I will take a look, and abide until them.

Jay, the idea here is to drum up bids from parties that meet the minimum criteria set in the RFP itself, as opposed to laying out the specifics for the agreement itself. That's a longer process involving the team and legal, once we choose a partner. :) Thanks. --Ken.

MZMcBride

8:03 a.m.

Leslie Carr wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 3:29 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

Leslie Carr wrote:

ulsfo is a caching center (varnish + LVS servers, but no backend infrastructure and very few machines)

Thank you for clarifying a bit. That helps. Is this new datacenter intended to be more like eqiad, then? And (echoing Maarten's question) will this new datacenter replace pmtpa?

Yes to both!

Awesome. Thanks again for your responses to questions here. They've been incredibly helpful. :-) I added links to <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_servers> so that we can hopefully get that page updated one day. MZMcBride

Ken Snider

8:12 a.m.

On Oct 21, 2013, at 8:03 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote:

...

I added links to <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_servers> so that we can hopefully get that page updated one day.

Thanks - definitely something to tackle once we complete the Tampa migration and new DC buildout. Transparency and a well documented network infrastructure are high on my personal priority list. :) --Ken.

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participants (12)

Dan Garry
George William Herbert
Gerard Meijssen
Jay Ashworth
Jeremy Baron
Ken Snider
Leslie Carr
Maarten Dammers
MZMcBride
Risker
rupert THURNER
Siebrand Mazeland (WMF)