Hoi. The Babel templates are widely used on the Wikimedia Foundation's wikis. Implementing them is a lot of work; you need more then 1000 templates just to cover the languages that the Wikimedia Foundation supports in its projects. Several Wikis have templates to support additional languages. For the bigger projects this is no longer an issue as the templates have already been created, but for many of the smaller projects getting the Babel information implemented is a lot of work. It would be great if the time could be saved to do something that is really useful like writing articles.
At Betawiki we have been working hard to create a Babel extension. The great news of an extension is, that there is no need to do anything but implement the extension. We currently think that the software is at a state where we would like to invite the last comments leading to the implementation on all the WMF wikis.
Thanks, Gerard
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi. The Babel templates are widely used on the Wikimedia Foundation's wikis. Implementing them is a lot of work; you need more then 1000 templates just to cover the languages that the Wikimedia Foundation supports in its projects.
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
-- brion
Hoi, If there was only a number in it... There is however a text in the templates in the language that is indicated, the text is RTL or LTR where applicable. Anyway, I agree with you that such a high number of templates is not really what we want. and consequently the Babel extension provides a really welcome relief. Thanks. GerardM
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:51 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi. The Babel templates are widely used on the Wikimedia Foundation's wikis. Implementing them is a lot of work; you need more then 1000 templates
just
to cover the languages that the Wikimedia Foundation supports in its projects.
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
-- brion
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
Remarkably, at least some of them appear to be manually-typed-out HTML, or substed or something. Apparently people didn't believe in meta-templates?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_ksh&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_zh&action=edit
Some use a template . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_de&action=edit
. . . but it's {{userbox}}. Evidently something like
{{babel|de|German language|Dieser Benutzer spricht '''[[:Category:User de|Deutsch]]''' als '''[[:Category:User de-N|Muttersprache]]'''.}}
didn't seem useful to anyone.
To be fair, though, you really do have to have one template for each language/proficiency combination, if you want the sentence saying "This user speaks Old Church Slavonic on a native level" or whatever properly translated to each and every one of the hundreds of languages that at least one person speaks. Whether this is grounds for an extension, rather than a bunch of master templates on Meta that get copied out to the projects regularly by friendly neighborhood bots, is a separate question. (Now, if the extension were one to enable scary transclusion in a sane fashion . . .)
Simetrical wrote:
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
Remarkably, at least some of them appear to be manually-typed-out HTML, or substed or something. Apparently people didn't believe in meta-templates?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_ksh&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_zh&action=edit
Some use a template . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_de&action=edit
. . . but it's {{userbox}}. Evidently something like
{{babel|de|German language|Dieser Benutzer spricht '''[[:Category:User de|Deutsch]]''' als '''[[:Category:User de-N|Muttersprache]]'''.}}
didn't seem useful to anyone.
The Babel templates are the _original_ userboxes. The others, like "This user likes strawberry ice cream", came around later when people started creating their own parodies and imitations of the Babel boxes.
They also date from around the time when [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates]] was written, and from long before it was rebutted by [[Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance]]. Which, mind you, was also before ParserFunctions and a number of general improvements to the parser, so the concern wasn't _quite_ as silly then as it may seem now.
Actually, the reasonable thing would be to turn these templates into interface messages, probably specified via a simple extension, so that they can automatically be made available on all projects without having to create local copies on each wiki. Which is more or less what I assume (without actually looking, mind you) the proposed extension is doing, perhaps with some syntactic sugar thrown on top of it.
Bah, forgot to Cc this to foundation-l and wikipedia-l. Sorry for the repost, wikitech.
Simetrical wrote:
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
Remarkably, at least some of them appear to be manually-typed-out HTML, or substed or something. Apparently people didn't believe in meta-templates?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_ksh&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_zh&action=edit
Some use a template . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:User_de&action=edit
. . . but it's {{userbox}}. Evidently something like
{{babel|de|German language|Dieser Benutzer spricht '''[[:Category:User de|Deutsch]]''' als '''[[:Category:User de-N|Muttersprache]]'''.}}
didn't seem useful to anyone.
The Babel templates are the _original_ userboxes. The others, like "This user likes strawberry ice cream", came around later when people started creating their own parodies and imitations of the Babel boxes.
They also date from around the time when [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates]] was written, and from long before it was rebutted by [[Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance]]. Which, mind you, was also before ParserFunctions and a number of general improvements to the parser, so the concern wasn't _quite_ as silly then as it may seem now.
Actually, the reasonable thing would be to turn these templates into interface messages, probably specified via a simple extension, so that they can automatically be made available on all projects without having to create local copies on each wiki. Which is more or less what I assume (without actually looking, mind you) the proposed extension is doing, perhaps with some syntactic sugar thrown on top of it.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi. The Babel templates are widely used on the Wikimedia Foundation's wikis. Implementing them is a lot of work; you need more then 1000 templates just to cover the languages that the Wikimedia Foundation supports in its projects.
That is of course ridiculous, only a couple of templates should be required for "box with a number in it".
-- brion
We try to use very few with our system on Meta-Wiki. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:User_language
One of my main problems with the babel extension is that I don't think it gets rid of the *huge* number of categories that need to be created (otherwise you have ugly redlinks). The system on Meta-Wiki greatly reduces the number of categories, but I've been told that the extension's developer was completely against any changes to the extension (I didn't hear it directly from him).
On 02/07/2008, Casey Brown cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com wrote:
We try to use very few with our system on Meta-Wiki. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:User_language
It is still using one per language, which means hundreds of them. Now, which is easier: copying hundreds of templates periodically, or installing an extension that can be updated the normal way. Especially for wikies outside of WMF which do not use many bots, if any.
One of my main problems with the babel extension is that I don't think it gets rid of the *huge* number of categories that need to be created (otherwise you have ugly redlinks).
There is already a switch to have less categories, requested by me for example. What comes to creating the category pages... this is the first time I see anyone bringing it up.
The system on Meta-Wiki greatly reduces the number of categories, but I've been told that the extension's developer was completely against any changes to the extension (I didn't hear it directly from him).
It looks like you are spreading FUD about the extension AND the developer without checkking the facts first. I would be offended if I were the developer in question.
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Niklas Laxström niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com wrote:
On 02/07/2008, Casey Brown cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com wrote:
We try to use very few with our system on Meta-Wiki. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:User_language
It is still using one per language, which means hundreds of them. Now, which is easier: copying hundreds of templates periodically, or installing an extension that can be updated the normal way. Especially for wikies outside of WMF which do not use many bots, if any.
You still aren't understanding me... I'm *love* the idea of an extension to do this, I would rather we install it/one with the best features first (especially if it's Wikimedia-wide).
One of my main problems with the babel extension is that I don't think it gets rid of the *huge* number of categories that need to be created (otherwise you have ugly redlinks).
There is already a switch to have less categories, requested by me for example. What comes to creating the category pages... this is the first time I see anyone bringing it up.
$wgBabelUseMainCategories A boolean (true or false) indicating whether main categories featuring all users who specify a level for that language should be added to a xx category; defaults to true.
How are they added to the category? Ordered by ability, then alphabetically... or just alphabetically?
The system on Meta-Wiki greatly reduces the number of categories, but I've been told that the extension's developer was completely against any changes to the extension (I didn't hear it directly from him).
It looks like you are spreading FUD about the extension AND the developer without checkking the facts first. I would be offended if I were the developer in question.
-- Niklas Laxström
Please check *your* fact first. :-) I am *for* the extension, I just wish it were tweaked to be more efficient. I'm surprised no one is yelling "enwiki-centric" because the levels were in-fact based off of enwiki... Furthermore, I put the information in parenthesis *so* he wouldn't be offended, I have no reason to believe that what I told was incorrect considering I heard it from a pretty reputable source.
Hoi, Someone can be pretty reputable and dead wrong. If you want to learn about this extension YOU can ask or read the code. You do not need to assyoume.
When you say en.wiki centric, I say WTF ??? I was there when the functionality was discussed, I am pretty reputable and I was there ... we did not really consider en.wikipedia. More time was spend considering what Pathoschild tried to do on Meta...
Thanks, GerardM
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Casey Brown cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Niklas Laxström niklas.laxstrom@gmail.com wrote:
On 02/07/2008, Casey Brown cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com wrote:
We try to use very few with our system on Meta-Wiki. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:User_language
It is still using one per language, which means hundreds of them. Now, which is easier: copying hundreds of templates periodically, or installing an extension that can be updated the normal way. Especially for wikies outside of WMF which do not use many bots, if any.
You still aren't understanding me... I'm *love* the idea of an extension to do this, I would rather we install it/one with the best features first (especially if it's Wikimedia-wide).
One of my main problems with the babel extension is that I don't think it gets rid of the *huge* number of categories that need to be created (otherwise you have ugly redlinks).
There is already a switch to have less categories, requested by me for example. What comes to creating the category pages... this is the first time I see anyone bringing it up.
$wgBabelUseMainCategories A boolean (true or false) indicating whether main categories featuring all users who specify a level for that language should be added to a xx category; defaults to true.
How are they added to the category? Ordered by ability, then alphabetically... or just alphabetically?
The system on Meta-Wiki greatly reduces the number of categories, but I've been told that the extension's developer was completely against any changes to the extension (I didn't hear it directly from him).
It looks like you are spreading FUD about the extension AND the developer without checkking the facts first. I would be offended if I were the developer in question.
-- Niklas Laxström
Please check *your* fact first. :-) I am *for* the extension, I just wish it were tweaked to be more efficient. I'm surprised no one is yelling "enwiki-centric" because the levels were in-fact based off of enwiki... Furthermore, I put the information in parenthesis *so* he wouldn't be offended, I have no reason to believe that what I told was incorrect considering I heard it from a pretty reputable source.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to this address will probably get lost.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Casey Brown wrote:
You still aren't understanding me... I'm *love* the idea of an extension to do this, I would rather we install it/one with the best features first (especially if it's Wikimedia-wide).
"Perfect is the greatest enemy of the good enough." I still haven't looked at the specific extension being proposed, but, assuming it doesn't somehow irreversibly drive us down a dead end, we can always start with what we have and improve it later.
Please check *your* fact first. :-) I am *for* the extension, I just wish it were tweaked to be more efficient. I'm surprised no one is yelling "enwiki-centric" because the levels were in-fact based off of enwiki...
Well, installing a global extension obviously forces global standardization of the levels. There's two relatively obvious ways to go about that: either pick the largest common subset (which would essentially be the 0/1/2/3/native system from Commons) or the smallest common superset (which would more or less be the 0/1/2/3/4/native/5/... system from enwiki) of the various systems currently in use.
The choice comes essentially down to which one you'd rather deal with: a bunch of vaguely defined and overlapping crufty "vanity" levels cluttering up the system, or bazillion enwiki users screaming bloody murder because you're taking away their "expert level" babel box.
Of course, it occurs to me that it might be possible to have it both ways: set up the global system with only the few globally used levels, and let individual projects maintain any additional levels they want using either local additions to the extension or simply the existing template-based mechanism.
(However, as issue worth considering is that, if we allow local additions to the babel extension, some people *will* want to migrate *all* their userboxes to it.)
Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
The system may work fine on Meta... That is fine for Meta. I am interested in seeing it work on other wikis where it does not work.
Meta's template system was not designed for Meta only; it is the result of collaboration in various crosswiki channels and wiki discussions with users from many wikis. The levels and descriptions were carefully selected after such discussion and an analysis of the levels used on the top 10 wikis. On the other hand, the extension seems to have copied the levels verbatim from en-Wikipedia. I think the extension would be more appropriate for global implementation if it used Meta's more global and better described levels (although a crosswiki template transclusion extension would be a better solution). http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Crosswiki_babelboxes http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Babel/Archives/2008-03#New_babel_templates
Ilmari Karonen nospam@vyznev.net wrote:
Well, installing a global extension obviously forces global standardization of the levels. There's two relatively obvious ways to go about that: either pick the largest common subset (which would essentially be the 0/1/2/3/native system from Commons) or the smallest common superset (which would more or less be the 0/1/2/3/4/native/5/... system from enwiki) of the various systems currently in use.
The template system on Meta uses 0-4 and Native, based on the discussion and crosswiki analysis described above. I think that is a more appropriate choice for a global extension than copying en-Wikipedia's levels.
Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com wrote:
A difference to my user pages at de.WP is that there is no level 4 at Meta, did I get that right? Another difference: at Meta there are only categories for User de, User eo and so on, but not for the levels (de-M, eo-4...). Is this the point we are talking about?
There is a level 4, which says something like "This user can read and write at a near-native level in <language>".
There's one category per language, but they're sorted into lists by proficiency. For example, see the category description for http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:User_de. You can click on the links in the English category description to jump directly to the list of users of a given proficiency.
Is there any chance of getting commons to work with templates the same way it works with images?
As far as I know there is something called "Scary transclusion"[1],[2]. "Enable scary transclusion (transcluding from another wiki)." It has to be enabled on a per wiki basis. I have no clue what it's current status is, and if there is any experience with it in larger MediaWiki environments.
Siebrand
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgEnableScaryTranscluding [2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4547
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Namens Anthony Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2008 14:28 Aan: Wikimedia developers Onderwerp: Re: [Wikitech-l] Implementing the Babel extension
Is there any chance of getting commons to work with templates the same way it works with images?
_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nl wrote:
As far as I know there is something called "Scary transclusion"[1],[2]. "Enable scary transclusion (transcluding from another wiki)." It has to be enabled on a per wiki basis. I have no clue what it's current status is, and if there is any experience with it in larger MediaWiki environments.
Siebrand
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgEnableScaryTranscluding [2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4547
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Namens Anthony Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2008 14:28 Aan: Wikimedia developers Onderwerp: Re: [Wikitech-l] Implementing the Babel extension
Is there any chance of getting commons to work with templates the same way it works with images?
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
It's still scary and largely inefficient. While entries _can_ be cached locally, there's no way of automatically expiring the cache when the original copy is updated. Instead, it expires at a given time. See bug 9890.
-Chad
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nl wrote:
As far as I know there is something called "Scary transclusion"[1],[2]. "Enable scary transclusion (transcluding from another wiki)." It has to be enabled on a per wiki basis. I have no clue what it's current status is, and if there is any experience with it in larger MediaWiki environments.
It's used on Wikia. http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Scratchpad:Template_demo shows some of the uses and bugs. The caching problem that Chad mentioned is the main reason we don't make more use of it. Also, parameters aren't passed to the wiki using the template which limits its usefulness.
Angela
Oh, it's still a proposal merely, but its something that I plan to build at some point in the future (it's needed for some of my other extensions and uses), but I do have plans to make a TransWiki extension. http://wiki-tools.com/wiki/TransWiki
There are only two tricky points. I've already theorized on how to get stuff, how to ensure efficiency, and what not. The first issue is syntax. I've had a few thoughts, note that the first goal is to make this work with a tag, the second goal is making this work with a commons type setup.
My first thought on the syntax was something like <transwiki name=anime page=Template:Stub /> with an optional namespace=# in case the other wiki and the module currently used for connecting to another wiki did not give out information on another wiki's custom namespaces. Though do note that in this syntax, XML like syntax is used to avoid conflicting with syntax other things use (and do remember that at a core the point here is NOT to look like template transclusion, it is to transclude WikiText from another wiki into a Template where you then include that template into a page), however because things are transcluded at the extreme beginning, it doesn't actually use MediaWiki's xml tag stuff, this is all just regex replaced before anything happens to it (Yes, that does mean that <transwiki /> is immune to <nowiki/> and will transclude even if wrapped in it... Of course, that could also be regarded as a feature ;) if you were to want to transclude something and then go and highlight what code was used; But all in all, a syntax that WON'T be used in any other case is extremely necessary for this because of that core reason that the tag will not be affected by <nowiki/>)
As for the commons like setup, by default I don't want to transclude /everything/. I will consider a config option for that purpose. However, the plan is first to use something like a __SHARED__ tag on a commons wiki, then pages tagged with that will be transcluded to all the inheriting wiki if the page there does not exist. (This also means that you could put __SHARED__ on your userpage and have it transcluded from commons even though it's not in the Template: namespace)
The second issue is the parser. I've talked to Tim many a time before, but there are two bits in the parser (for two different extensions) which do NOT, exist in the parser right now, and I'm having a hard time finding a place to introduce a hook for that purpose. /(Feel free to ignore this first speal, it's not as relevant)/ The first one is to do with the preprocessor and WikiCode; I need to allow a #parserfunction to access the frame of the parent template (It's supposed to extract a list of template variables used inside of the template call it is inside of -- This could probably also be used for a #macrovar: type parserfunction where you grab the value of a variable not in the current scope, but in the scope of the template outside of the current template ;) as confusing as that is, it does have a useful purpose... Think, proxying a template with a shortened name, but only setting what you need to set, allowing a #macrovar: inside of that template to grab the variable from current scope and use it instead of directly passing the variable to the template [this allows for things to be expanded without breaking things and needing to edit every single proxy template which uses a simpler config]. But moreover, it could be used for something as simple as say {{empty|foo|default}} which works similarly to {{{foo|}}} except it works as if you inserted {{#if:{{{foo|}}}|{{{foo}}}|default}} into the page itself.) The second one, and more important in this case is to do with ParserBeforeStrip, and transclusions. Basically, because we are transcluding early (before anything is parsed at all) we need a hook or two which will allow us to insert WikiText at this point in loading. ParserBeforeStrip works nice for that purpose in the current page, it however does not work for transclusions which is the purpose of the TransWiki idea. I need to find a location in the parser where I can insert a hook to modify the text of a template being transluded (it also needs to give the Title::... instance for that template being transcluded, otherwise we won't be able to do this in a commons like way and will be limited only to tags). I however have had issues finding a place to put this kind of hook inside of the parser.
~Daniel Friesen(Dantman) of: -The Nadir-Point Group (http://nadir-point.com) --It's Wiki-Tools subgroup (http://wiki-tools.com) --Games-G.P.S. (http://ggps.org) -And Wikia ACG on Wikia.com (http://wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_ACG)
Angela wrote:
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Siebrand Mazeland s.mazeland@xs4all.nl wrote:
As far as I know there is something called "Scary transclusion"[1],[2]. "Enable scary transclusion (transcluding from another wiki)." It has to be enabled on a per wiki basis. I have no clue what it's current status is, and if there is any experience with it in larger MediaWiki environments.
It's used on Wikia. http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Scratchpad:Template_demo shows some of the uses and bugs. The caching problem that Chad mentioned is the main reason we don't make more use of it. Also, parameters aren't passed to the wiki using the template which limits its usefulness.
Angela
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org