Yes, the bots are useful for devs, that's the reason why we made them
and there is a little point to argue about that. But they aren't
useful for other users of #mediawiki especially users who seek help.
IMHO #mediawiki should be used for development (bots are probably ok),
#wikimedia-dev for wikimedia related developement (some bots are ok)
and there should be another channel for mediawiki support, which would
be user friendly.
If we keep the bots as they are we won't fix anything (if you think
that there is no issue, read the first mail).
If we move the bots to #wikimedia-dev we likely kill the
#wikimedia-dev channel, and all #mediawiki devs will loose the track
of what's going on (defacto we rename #mediawiki to #wikimedia-dev and
most of people who were in #mediawiki will just move to -dev).
If we move the bots to separate channel which would be +m, we will
make all channels more usable for regular talk. But some people will
find it difficult because they would have to switch channels more
If we create new channel for mediawiki help and keep the rest as it
is, we solve this problem as well.
If we get all bots to -feed channel, and reconfigure them to send only
topic related feed to current channels, (mediawiki related stuff to
#mediawiki, wikimedia related stuff to #wikimedia-dev) then we could
either make the channels friendlier and we could have a relevant stuff
in there (I don't understand why #mediawiki devs need to see bugs
related to wikimedia platform issues, these should go to -dev). That
would mean more spam in -dev and less spam in #mediawiki and more
relevant feeds, people who just like to watch spam and flood could
stay in #mediawiki-feed. It would involve some people to work on that
and change the code of bots, devs are lazy (like me) so this is likely
a bad option :)
Don't say things are OK right now, they clearly aren't. If they are
fine for you, that doesn't mean they are fine for others. Bots are
good for devs, no wonder, we made them. But there are other users too.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Krinkle <krinklemail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Chad
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Brion Vibber
In my experience, the bots in the channel are an
important part of our
workflow -- new bug reports, bug updates, and patches in gerrit. When I'm
discussing things in #wikimedia-dev I usually end up having to manually
references to something that a bot already sent
to #mediawiki, which is
of the reasons I've always preferred using
Please don't make yet another split-off channel; that'll be annoying and
make things more complicated for little if any benefit.
I think I agree with Brion more than anyone else. I find the bots to
be incredibly useful, and jumping back and forth between channels
is a pain. Also like I've said multiple times in multiple places over
the past couple of days--when you move channels you fracture
discussion. It happened with #wikimedia-dev, and it'll happen again
here if we don't do this right.
However, I see the argument to be made that if you're not a regular
then the bots can be rather annoying to filter out. And honestly,
someone who drops in for a few minutes to ask a question shouldn't
be asked to /ignore every random bot they see.
Is there some middle ground here?
I agree with all the above (hm.. I see a pattern emerging :D ).
I think the middle ground is to keep the bots in a regular discussion
channel, but not the channel where most support and new-user development
takes place, but a channel where most core developers hang out. I'm talking
I'll cite myself from CR: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/12388
We should make the bots smarter, and spread out to relevant channels
(rather than everything in one channeL). But I
don't think one (or more)
"bot channels" is going to work. The main concern raised (iirc) is that new
users don't like them. And I agree the 'user' level doesn't have much
for them. A few ideas:
* #mediawiki: wikibugs for Product=MediaWiki (maybe + MediaWiki extensions).
* #wikimedia-dev: wikibugs for Product=Wikimedia.
* Other bugs are not sent to IRC (unless additional rules are inserted.
e.g. mobile could have their component output in
* #wikimedia-dev: gerrit-wm messages currently assigned for #mediawiki
could be moved to #wikimedia-dev. That will
reduce the flood for support,
while keeping them in the relevant context of developers and conversations.
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