"dan entous" <d_entous(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:75E303E6-3EC7-4A17-824E-C3D8D3378021@yahoo.com... I would much rather it went to a new page, dedicated for this exact purpose. Manual:Contents is the contents page for the manual, and I can see that once this is implemented there will be feature creep which will move it away from its original purpose. One of the hubs might be appropriate ([[mw:User hub]], [[mw:Sysadmin hub]] or [[mw:Developer hub]] - all of which need some tlc), but perhaps we need a new more-tightly-focussed page that spans user-types. Personally, I would recommend that we create [[mw:Get involved]] if it is about general MW involvement or perhaps [[meta:Developer hub]] if it's more WMF focussed (or has that all moved to mw.org now - I am not so clear about the distinction as I used to be). - HappyDog (cross-posted to https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33464)

Jon, if you want to take the lead on this, go ahead. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Sumanah/ApiDocsImprovement has some thoughts that Ben Lobaugh had put together (including the Flickr example) in case you find those useful. -- Sumana Harihareswara Engineering Community Manager Wikimedia Foundation On 09/18/2012 12:34 PM, Jon Robson wrote:

On 09/18/2012 12:44 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote: To help new developers get into MediaWiki core and extensions, there's https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker (which does of course link to Annoying Little Bugs). To help new developers get into the web API, there's https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Tutorial and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API although I know these aren't as great as the API documentation that Meetup, Etsy, Flickr, and similar sites provide. To help new gadget developers, there is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gadget_kitchen . And to help new developers discover various cross-Wikimedia tech projects, there is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_developer_hub . Just wanted people to know so they don't reinvent the wheel. :) -- Sumana Harihareswara Engineering Community Manager Wikimedia Foundation

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Sumana Harihareswara <sumanah(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: My 2c: the "Wikimedia developer hub" page on meta should be the starting point. Let's not create yet another "central" page. If we do end up bikeshedding our way to a different URL, please someone make sure there's a redirect from the page above to the new page rather than keeping the old one around out of nostalgia. Rob

At the danger of derailing/forking the conversation... My preference with bugzilla is to only raise bugs when the outcome is clear. The test I use is if I gave a bug to a newbie could they pick it up and fix it without any questions. If it's not clear I'd start a mailing list conversation with the outcome of cutting a new bug with decisions made. My worry with using bugzilla as the place of discussion is that a bug can get extremely confusing - especially when people have differing views. The result of this is a manageable bug list for the mobile site [1] which could one day be empty and is much more manageable. [1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=147228&field0-0-0=bu… On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Jon Robson http://jonrobson.me.uk @rakugojon

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote: Generally, we want a single link that encapsulates everything a developer might be interested in (Gadgets, MediaWiki extensions, the web API, data dumps, bot infrastructure like pywikipediabot, MediaWiki core development, generally volunteering, etc). API:Main_page (for better or worse) is focused on our web API. Rob

I really wish I could just got to http://developer.wikimedia.org/ and/or http://developer.wikipedia.org --tomasz On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I'm afraid that my opposition is rather frivolous, but is the ratio of developers to laymen enough to justify adding the "extra" burden? It seems some others have noted that if we include a developer hub, we can't stop there. I could propose a research hub, a librarian hub, a photographer hub. A developer outreach program might be better as it's unlikely anyone ever even reads the links at the bottom. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Submitted in https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Ifa3c5e9988da162b2dde65e66bcb180f96161783… I also added develop.wm.o and did them all for wikipedia.org too. (waiting for review so we can still change the set of domains later and of course they're always subject to change even after deployed) -Jeremy

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote: Can I haz Facebook tarball? In seriousness, the utter open sourceness of our codebase is what sets us apart, so we should make it clear pretty prominently on our dev hub. For most platforms, cool open source side projects notwithstanding, the API/SDK is all you get to talk to the core platform - in our case you get the platform itself. So I don't agree that we should point folks to the API first, and to the platform second. With that said, I agree that the dev hub currently is pretty much inside baseball and we should try to make it more understandable if we prominently link it from every footer of every page. Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

On 20 September 2012 08:54, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote: Of course, we already have a link to the mediawiki.org front page on every page we serve - that's what the "Powered by MediaWiki" button links to. There, the four most prominent links are: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Installation * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuration * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker I assumed that the point of this additional link was to take people to our API because we already use our bully-pulpit to ask for more developers quite strongly, but people who want to use us as a service need to dig further to even know we have one. If all we're doing is duplicating the general "hey, you're a techy person" link with another text label, this exercise will have lost its value. J. -- James D. Forrester Product Manager, VisualEditor Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. jforrester(a)wikimedia.org | @jdforrester | +1 415-839-6885 x6844

So I had a brainwave about this over the weekend. The home page for the developer page should act like a personal appeal only with __developers__ as the writers. I think a personal touch is a great way to explain to a would be developer to why they should care about our apis and our codebase. Hearing from real people with real problems that they are solving in the real world would be an extremely inspiring way to get new people involved I think the home page should be written as a personal appeal to a new developer from ALL developers with links in the right places to the right thing. I think this should also be followed up by a randomised personal appeal from a developer himself - we should mix these between app developers, bug wranglers, feature developers, volunteers, employees etc etc I've knocked up a first version here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_Hub In future I'd love to see banners ads asking people to donate development time pointing to these pages or at least see the donation page inform people that they can help in other ways. Is anyone else excited about this idea or is it just me...? On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:15 PM, MZMcBride <z(a)mzmcbride.com> wrote: -- Jon Robson http://jonrobson.me.uk @rakugojon

I can't actually say I like this idea a whole lot. Here's why: * Personal appeals have to be well written in order to work. A poorly written personal appeal will not actually appeal to someone and may in fact turn them away. * We use personal appeals for the fund raising drive. I think using them here as well, especially when we have these [1] going on every year is a bad idea. * A personal appeal on a page like this is a wall of text. We need to be very careful not to elicit the "TL;DR" response from people. ** On a similar vein: This page needs to be fairly appealing in appearance, like the MediaWiki.org homepage is, or people will leave. In my experience, programmers are very practical pragmatic people. I don't think that a personal appeal is the best way to appeal to them. At least not how the idea is currently presented. The Mediawiki.org homepage does a better job of getting my hyped to use Mediawiki right now. [1]: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wikipedia-fundraising-campaign

On 24/09/2012 15:41, Jon Robson wrote: Brief appeals, with a bunch of big linkey thingies to categories of thingies! It could work! Thingies make everything better. Mainpage needs more thingies too. Or perhaps less. Or maybe just better ones. I guess my point is I agree about 1, although for me it's more just because it's ugly and confusing than anything else. -- -— Isarra

On 25/09/12 05:35, Jon Robson wrote: I moved it to <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Jdlrobson/Developer_Hub> I don't think your proposed text is appropriate, since it portrays MediaWiki as a WMF project. There's a difference between being a MediaWiki developer and being a WMF developer. Your text reads like a WMF job advertisement. Maybe something like that could be on wikimediafoundation.org. -- Tim Starling

Hi, On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Robson &lt;jdlrobson(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I'm not sure about the concept of personal appeal for APIs and open source projects. They should be objectively appealing in the first place. Once the most attractive facts are effectively explained we can spice them up with showcases and personal experiences. In order to attract and keep new developers we want to strive for maximum simplification in the Developer Hub. What pearls with hook do we have for newcomers? - An API to operate with precious Wikipedia data in your applications. - Open source projects improving Wikipedia and looking for contributors. - MediaWiki is the free, extensible and customizable technology that powers Wikipedia and thousands of other sites. - Become a wikitech ambassador in order to test the fresh stuff and get involved. Each entry would lead to THE reference page, from which the interested reader could dive in. Each entry could feature already in the Developer Hub the best showcases: - amazing apps using the API, - Wikipedia mobile, visual editor, article feedback. - amazing sites powered with MediaWiki. - amazing selection of ambassadors and contributors. We do many other things, but they should be linkable from these main pillars. If you have a very important entry to add, which one in the list would you remove? PS: still learning about how to contribute effectively to a RFC in conjunction with mailing list discussion and bug report. ;) -- Quim

On 09/25/2012 03:11 PM, Tomasz Finc wrote: I want to ensure that we cover the issues that we discussed last time, in the "Where to host wikimedia related software projects" discussion, and if wikitech.wikimedia.org is involved, ask Ops for their input as well. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/wikitech/272170 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/labs-l/2012-March/000081.html -- Sumana Harihareswara Engineering Community Manager Wikimedia Foundation

Le 20/09/12 02:12, Tomasz Finc a écrit : The necessary Apache change is now in Gerrit: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/24419 If we get consensus, we can get op to deploy that :) -- Antoine "hashar" Musso

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Sumana Harihareswara &lt;sumanah(a)wikimedia.org but the conversation seems to be zeroing in on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_hub<http://www.mediawiki.org/wi… I don't understand the difference, I challenge anyone to explain it in less than ten words, so I propose the page on meta should become a soft redirect. Every additional page (and its associated talk page!) adds a cognitive and maintenance burden, hinders community, and diminishes focus, and two "Hubs" with indistinguishable names is a bicycle. (The one true Developer hub can still have a section(s) about "other WikiMedia Foundation software projects besides the Mediawiki software") -- =S Page software engineer on E3