On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:10 AM, James Forrester <jforrester(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Yay! Agreed... but if not us, then who? /me looks around at folks, wonders if anyone wants to commit to running such a service as a third-party that we could make super-easy for shared PHP-host users to use... -- brion

We already run a public Parsoid service. Kiwix uses it, as does Nell's Wikipedia. I believe some non-WMF content translation efforts also use it. Usage limits and API keys would probably be a reasonable thing to do, longer-term. --scott On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Brion Vibber <bvibber(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: -- (http://cscott.net)

Another possibility is to shell out to nodejs-based services as an alternative to running them as ongoing web services. This may not be super performant, but it should work -- just as we've been able to shell out to system binaries, Python scripts, ocaml, lua, etc for years. Would require having node *present* on the system but wouldn't require running a web service. Something to consider trying... -- brion On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Brion Vibber <bvibber(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Brion Vibber &lt;bvibber(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: I have a hard time imagining a situation where you can install node and everything else, but would not just apt-get install parsoid <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid/Setup> or mathoid. VMs that can run MediaWiki with all bells & whistles start at around $3 per month <http://www.ovh.com/us/vps/vps-classic.xml> these days, and are likely to become even cheaper. I believe we can make installing a fully-featured MediaWiki service system as simple as copy&pasting 2-3 lines to a shell, or even executing a remote installer script that runs those lines for you. Additionally, we can offer VM images derived from the same install process through Bitnami or others. To make this happen, we need to evaluate the options, make a decision and then follow through by making this our recommended and supported installation mechanism & providing a solid upgrade path for existing content. I created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T87774 as a high-level tracking bug for the task of evaluating and deciding on a distribution strategy targeted at VMs. Gabriel

Gabriel and Wikimedia developers, In what ways might you be anticipating developments with SemanticMediaWiki, and in what ways not? Scott On Jan 28, 2015 9:52 AM, "Gabriel Wicke" &lt;gwicke(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote:

Gabriel, Thanks ... yes, that's what I meant, and I wonder further if SemanticMediaWiki will become very central five or ten years out (might it even displace MediaWiki itself as we know it now)? Scott On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Gabriel Wicke &lt;gwicke(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: -- Scott MacLeod http://scottmacleod.com http://worlduniversityandschool.org/ This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this email message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and destroy/delete all copies of the transmittal. Thank you.

Brad, On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) < bjorsch(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: I think that we can help most users more if we identify the most important use cases and focus on making those *really* easy. The installation in exotic scenarios should still be supported, but I think it's okay if it involves following some instructions manually. My gut feel is that most users are in the situation of having a free choice of hosting provider or distribution. If we can't find a good solution that satisfies our requirements *and* works well across distributions, then I think focusing on Debian / Ubuntu should be okay. Gabriel

If I'm no longer able to run MediaWiki from a XAMPP installation (as part of the development process) without breaking my fingers due to an overlay complicated setup that would require me to read a book before the first line of code hits the editor then its time to put MW in a box and look for something else. Cheers On 1/29/15, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) &lt;bjorsch(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Gabriel Wicke &lt;gwicke(a)wikimedia.org&gt; > wrote: > >> I think that we can help most users more if we identify the most important >> use cases and focus on making those *really* easy. The installation in >> exotic scenarios should still be supported, but I think it's okay if it >> involves following some instructions manually. >> > > > > -- > Brad Jorsch (Anomie) > Software Engineer > Wikimedia Foundation > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Well, that's the point from your perspective that might cause no trouble because you know what to do but as a developer who has no particular interest in NodeJs or the inner workings of Parsoid, I'm not interested on how to setup NodeJs or for that matter Parsoid. I'm interested in getting MW to run without hassle and not being occupied by trying to install a tomcat or any other service just to see the bare light of the MW logo. Cheers On 1/29/15, Brion Vibber &lt;bvibber(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: > I think XAMPP-type setups are actually probably going to adapt well here -- > > My biggest worry is the small installation on a server where the maintainer > doesn't have full admin/root access -- shared departmental web servers or > shared-PHP hosting services. > > -- brion > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:16 AM, James HK &lt;jamesin.hongkong.1(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> > While I agree that the most important cases should be *really* easy, I >> > worry about the implication that all other cases (including development >> of >> > core MediaWiki without using VMs) should necessarily be allowed to be >> > *really* complex. >> >> If I'm no longer able to run MediaWiki from a XAMPP installation (as >> part of the development process) without breaking my fingers due to an >> overlay complicated setup that would require me to read a book before >> the first line of code hits the editor then its time to put MW in a >> box and look for something else. >> >> Cheers >> >> On 1/29/15, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) &lt;bjorsch(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: >> > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Gabriel Wicke &lt;gwicke(a)wikimedia.org&gt; >> > wrote: >> > >> >> I think that we can help most users more if we identify the most >> important >> >> use cases and focus on making those *really* easy. The installation in >> >> exotic scenarios should still be supported, but I think it's okay if it >> >> involves following some instructions manually. >> >> >> > >> > While I agree that the most important cases should be *really* easy, I >> > worry about the implication that all other cases (including development >> of >> > core MediaWiki without using VMs) should necessarily be allowed to be >> > *really* complex. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Brad Jorsch (Anomie) >> > Software Engineer >> > Wikimedia Foundation >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikitech-l mailing list >> > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Hi! I think the prospect of having publicly-accessible services like Parsoid useable by smaller wiki installer is very cool and exciting. Thought it does not solve all cases - i.e. for inter-company wiki (which I personally used extensively as a medium for capturing internal docs, discussions, plans, etc.) there may be legal and confidentiality reasons that do not allow using services crossing the firewall. -- Stas Malyshev smalyshev(a)wikimedia.org

So if all wikis on world would use this central parsoid, I wouldn't like to see that huge outage when the parsoid server breaks :P On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:40 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

On 28 January 2015 at 08:13, Daniel Friesen &lt;daniel(a)nadir-seen-fire.com&gt; wrote: Yes, reaching out to a shared hosting company or two is definitely something to do at this stage! Do WordPress talk to hosting companies? They may be able to offer ideas on what hosting companies want as well. - d.