ok guys, I'm in! what's the correct etiquette?
should I commit the changes to LanguageFr.php from the fr: wiki, or let you know first?
what about stylesheet changes?
what's the procedure for code travelling from the CVS repository to the test server, to the actual live pedias?
-- tarquin
(PS I'll write replies up into the docs on Meta!)
tarquin-
ok guys, I'm in! what's the correct etiquette?
should I commit the changes to LanguageFr.php from the fr: wiki, or let you know first?
what about stylesheet changes?
Use your own judgment: If it's a minor change, commit, then announce. If it's a major change, announce, wait for objections, then commit.
Kind of like editing wiki pages ;-)
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Use your own judgment: If it's a minor change, commit, then announce.
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
If it's a major change, announce, wait for objections, then commit.
once I've had a look at the stylesheets I'll post a list of what I plan on doing.
tarquin wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
how many people have the power to move files from the CVS to the test server or the real server?
On Sun, Jun 22, 2003 at 09:48:35PM +0100, tarquin wrote:
tarquin wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
how many people have the power to move files from the CVS to the test server or the real server?
8 (at least so many members has wikidev group on the server)
tarquin-
tarquin wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
how many people have the power to move files from the CVS to the test server or the real server?
Only those with ssh access to the server (not everyone marked as a developer has ssh access. I don't.). That would be Lee, Brion, Magnus, Nick, and the Bomis folks.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
how many people have the power to move files from the CVS to the test server or the real server?
Only those with ssh access to the server (not everyone marked as a developer has ssh access. I don't.). That would be Lee, Brion, Magnus, Nick, and the Bomis folks.
How soon can one of them upload the new LanguageFr.php? It's now in the CVS.
If they are too busy, perhaps we need to give more people access?
tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
how many people have the power to move files from the CVS to the test server or the real server?
Only those with ssh access to the server (not everyone marked as a developer has ssh access. I don't.). That would be Lee, Brion, Magnus, Nick, and the Bomis folks.
How soon can one of them upload the new LanguageFr.php? It's now in the CVS.
If they are too busy, perhaps we need to give more people access?
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking person does have access one day. Especially a long-time contributor, bilingual to avoid misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
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On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 06:11:17AM -0700, Anthere wrote:
tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
I've uploaded the new LanguageFr.php. (yay! it worked!) Please could it go live fairly soon, the fr: have been waiting for their dates to be fixed for several weeks!
Unfortunately, although I can update LanguageFr.php, I'm not sure of the update procedures. If we just copy LanguageFr.php to htdocs*/w/ on pliny, well, that's easy enough - but I'm not sure if there is some more complicated procedure that we follow...
Anthere-
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking person does have access one day. Especially a long-time contributor, bilingual to avoid misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
While I strongly sympathize with you, the correct approach is to have a semi-automatic update procedure from CVS:
1) Code is updated on CVS (someone from fr. should definitely have CVS access) 2) Code is automatically installed on test.wikipedia.org using a cronjob 3) Code that has been on test.wikipedia.org for more than a week is automatically installed on all Wikipedias every day.
This requires some rather complex scripting to make sure the correct revisions are used, but once it's up and running, it should be fairly straight-forward and wiki-like (Note: Stuff like Magnus installing scripts directly on test.wiki would no longer be allowed -- there could be an experimental wiki for that.). I'm sure we'll set up something like this once the Wikimedia foundation has some resources.
Regards,
Erik
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 05:35:00PM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
Anthere-
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking person does have access one day. Especially a long-time contributor, bilingual to avoid misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
While I strongly sympathize with you, the correct approach is to have a semi-automatic update procedure from CVS:
- Code is updated on CVS (someone from fr. should definitely have CVS
access) 2) Code is automatically installed on test.wikipedia.org using a cronjob 3) Code that has been on test.wikipedia.org for more than a week is automatically installed on all Wikipedias every day.
This requires some rather complex scripting to make sure the correct revisions are used, but once it's up and running, it should be fairly straight-forward and wiki-like (Note: Stuff like Magnus installing scripts directly on test.wiki would no longer be allowed -- there could be an experimental wiki for that.). I'm sure we'll set up something like this once the Wikimedia foundation has some resources.
But it's not code, just updated language files, not ?
Erik Moeller wrote:
While I strongly sympathize with you, the correct approach is to have a semi-automatic update procedure from CVS:
- Code is updated on CVS (someone from fr. should definitely have CVS
access) 2) Code is automatically installed on test.wikipedia.org using a cronjob 3) Code that has been on test.wikipedia.org for more than a week is automatically installed on all Wikipedias every day.
This sounds great! But in the meantime -- could someone upload the LanguageFr.php file to the live server?
Magnus Manske wrote:
tarquin wrote:
But in the meantime -- could someone upload the LanguageFr.php file to the live server?
Done. Tell me if I made a mess ;-)
we've lost all the accented characters! They've all turned into "?". They are "?" in the HTML source as displayed by Mozilla too.
But I saved a page and loaded it in Textpad and all is fine.
(oh crap .... please don't tell me my first submission to the CVS had broken eveything!)
tarquin wrote:
Magnus Manske wrote:
tarquin wrote:
But in the meantime -- could someone upload the LanguageFr.php file to the live server?
Done. Tell me if I made a mess ;-)
we've lost all the accented characters! They've all turned into "?". They are "?" in the HTML source as displayed by Mozilla too.
Not if you switch to "Western ISO-8859-1"...
But I saved a page and loaded it in Textpad and all is fine.
(oh crap .... please don't tell me my first submission to the CVS had broken eveything!)
Should I change it back for the time being?
Magnus
Magnus Manske wrote:
Not if you switch to "Western ISO-8859-1"...
but it was fine before you put the new file in place!
But I saved a page and loaded it in Textpad and all is fine.
(oh crap .... please don't tell me my first submission to the CVS had broken eveything!)
Should I change it back for the time being?
Yes. there is clearly a problem: Recent Changes is called "Recent Changes" in ENGLISH! Restore the previous version. I will try to work out what has gone wrong.
Could it be that TextPad has killed the accented characters? I thought it was a well-behaved text editor! Or should ALL accented characters in the PHP source be written as entities or Unicode codes? Could that be the problem?
tarquin wrote:
Could it be that TextPad has killed the accented characters? I thought it was a well-behaved text editor! Or should ALL accented characters in the PHP source be written as entities or Unicode codes? Could that be the problem?
I don't know how to view an old version in CVS, but I've examined the diff.
Assuming 1.2 is what was on the server until today, not *that* much has changed.
The "recent changes" name certainly hasn't. Some accents are changed, some not:
1.2 has: Jetez un coup d'œil sur ces pages: [[Wikipédia:FAQ|Foire aux questions]], 1.3 has: Jetez un coup d'****œ****il sur ces pages: [[Wikip****é****dia:FAQ|Foire aux questions]], (the **** are mine to highlight)
CVS says: \ No newline at end of file
Could this be the problem?
tarquin wrote:
Magnus Manske wrote:
Should I change it back for the time being?
Yes. there is clearly a problem: Recent Changes is called "Recent Changes" in ENGLISH!
Back as it was. Strangely, the whole interface appeared in English. That shouldn't be affected by the Language files alone, except Language.php was entirely broken for some reason.
Restore the previous version. I will try to work out what has gone wrong.
I'll have a look myself.
Magnus
Magnus Manske wrote:
Restore the previous version. I will try to work out what has gone wrong.
I'll have a look myself.
With the old file in place, many accents are still broken. eg from http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia%3ALe_Bistro " Bienvenue au Bistro Wikip�dia"
I am very very sorry about this. I am out of my depth. Off to drown my sorrows down the pub.
tarquin wrote:
Magnus Manske wrote:
Restore the previous version. I will try to work out what has gone wrong.
I'll have a look myself.
With the old file in place, many accents are still broken. eg from http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia%3ALe_Bistro " Bienvenue au Bistro Wikip�dia"
Strange. I replaced everything exactly as it was.
I am very very sorry about this. I am out of my depth. Off to drown my sorrows down the pub.
Before you leave: It seems that "Language.php" is the guilty party somehow (I copied that as well, as it contains "fallback" items in case the LanguageFr.php isn't up to date or missing something). I'd guess it's the "global $IP" thingy at the very end of the file. Working on it...
Magnus
Magnus Manske wrote:
Before you leave: It seems that "Language.php" is the guilty party somehow (I copied that as well, as it contains "fallback" items in case the LanguageFr.php isn't up to date or missing something). I'd guess it's the "global $IP" thingy at the very end of the file. Working on it...
Adding:
Yes, was the $IP variable that is now defined in the new, improved GlobalFunctions.php. Copied that as well, and all the accents are in place again (or is that just the usual dirt on my screen? ;-)
Magnus
--- Jimmy Wales jwales@bomis.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking
person does have
access one day. Especially a long-time contributor,
bilingual to avoid
misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
Yes, me too! Are you a technical person?
--Jimbo
No, sorry Jimbo. I am not really. I would more dangerous than worthy :-) My wonderful skills do not rely there :-)))
(and I am neither bilingual, nor cool-spirited ;-))
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Wow, I seem to missed something yesterday ! First of all, I think to remember that Brion make a **convertion** on language page before to upload it on the server. I don't know what he do exaclty but I assume it's about encodage convertion. Brion is back ? No one else know about that ? The simplest is amho to ask him the right way to upadate language page (a walkthrough) as we may be able to update french language update. The thing I don't understand is why when Tarquin switch back the old version, all problems didn't vanish !? By the way, I also have access to CVS as developper, but I never succed to setup WinCVS through my office firewall (in fact I didn't try a lot yet). It may be nice that Tarquin or me (or both) be able to update french language update :o) Wait Brion & pray :oP
Aoineko
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthere" anthere6@yahoo.com To: wikitech-l@wikipedia.org Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] LanguageFr.php
--- Jimmy Wales jwales@bomis.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking
person does have
access one day. Especially a long-time contributor,
bilingual to avoid
misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
Yes, me too! Are you a technical person?
--Jimbo
No, sorry Jimbo. I am not really. I would more dangerous than worthy :-) My wonderful skills do not rely there :-)))
(and I am neither bilingual, nor cool-spirited ;-))
Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Aside with the problem with Global Functions, which is beyond me, I made a HUGE mistake:
I copied the text from the RENDERED wiki page ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LanguageFr.php ) and NOT from the source. doh! doh! doh!
Aoineko http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko has sent me a fixed version, with entities for characters foreign to the fr: setup (language names for instance). I have uploaded this to CVS. New version is 1.4
tarquin wrote:
Aside with the problem with Global Functions, which is beyond me, I made a HUGE mistake:
I copied the text from the RENDERED wiki page ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LanguageFr.php ) and NOT from the source. doh! doh! doh!
Aoineko http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko has sent me a fixed version, with entities for characters foreign to the fr: setup (language names for instance). I have uploaded this to CVS. New version is 1.4
Just went online. Working OK?
Magnus Manske wrote:
Aoineko http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Aoineko has sent me a fixed version, with entities for characters foreign to the fr: setup (language names for instance). I have uploaded this to CVS. New version is 1.4
Just went online. Working OK?
Yup. Thank you :-)
Jimmy Wales wrote:
Anthere wrote:
I thiiiiiiink, it would be great a french-speaking person does have access one day. Especially a long-time contributor, bilingual to avoid misunderstanding, dedicated, cool-spirited...cough
Yes, me too! Are you a technical person?
Unfortunaly I don't speak french, but I'm doing the most changes on the LanguageDE.php file and I'm interested in the possibility to activate it, if thats of interest (there are a lot of german developers and I don't know of their interests in doing that job themselves), or test it.
If the process of activating such a language file on french or others is the same (or someone (here: Brion) inform me about the tricks) I'm willing to do that, too. Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).
If it helps to give Brion some more time to do the realy important thinks, I'm willing to lend a helping hand. There may be others too of course, Nick and you (Jimbo), but I think it will needs some more fallbacks before Brions start to think about his next holidays. There needs to be someone else, who's able to fix an index table, and activate a Language file etc. (all those stupid little things costing Brions valuable time).
PS: if something I wrote was unclear, please give a hit, I had a long day and my english is not good enought to keep a red line under this conditions.
Thomas-
Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).
What risks are these? If CVS changes are automatically sent to the mailing list, and the stuff has to run on test.wiki for a week, the risks seem relatively low. In fact, the current system is riskier, because untested CVS code has slipped onto the live server several times without any prior review.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Thomas-
Until a automatic script will do that job (I hope that's never done, I can very well imagine the risk of this).
What risks are these? If CVS changes are automatically sent to the mailing list, and the stuff has to run on test.wiki for a week, the risks seem relatively low. In fact, the current system is riskier, because untested CVS code has slipped onto the live server several times without any prior review.
Well, and if nobody is online (of the developers) and all are on holidays and all missed the missing ',' at the end, everything is hopefully in english (fallback), and it will be fixed if the CVS is reinstalled in about a week. Fine, din't test what happens if such a ',' is missing and if the failback works, or if you everytime got an error in some logfile.
And if someone has a urgend patch, I bet, he/she will do it without using or waiting for about a week, especialy if the patch is needed e.g. to reduce the server load, fixig a security hole or something else of some importance. Never realy seen that working, not even if the admin is payed very well.
It's much more reliable if $ADMIN is around, putting the file at the proper place and checks if the thing is working with the new file, take a look if everything looks as expected and so on. And is half an hour watching his mails if someone starts crying for help.
Thomas-
Well, and if nobody is online (of the developers) and all are on holidays and all missed the missing ',' at the end, everything is hopefully in english (fallback),
First, there are many people with CVS access, and there will be many more soon. At some point, it is about as likely that all of them are unavailable as the danger that all Wikipedians are suddenly unavailable to fix a vandalized page.
Second, the idea is to use the test.wiki for experimenting, and to announce it as such to our users. So they would help with the debugging process.
Third, nothing would stop us from doing emergency bugfixes if absolutely necessary.
While I like having an admin do things manually, the number of different installations involved and the many people working on CVS code makes this quite tricky. It seems like an obvious job for scripts. It works for Debian, why shouldn't it work for us?
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
First, there are many people with CVS access, and there will be many more soon. At some point, it is about as likely that all of them are unavailable as the danger that all Wikipedians are suddenly unavailable to fix a vandalized page.
Well, and currently there are so many with CVS but too few (23 vs 1) checking and installing all those things. In fact I get the feeling that there are great difference between CVS and 'live'-php files. We are in 'code-frezze' for about 2 weeks or so, if you remember.
Second, the idea is to use the test.wiki for experimenting, and to announce it as such to our users. So they would help with the debugging process.
Nice idea. Where is the german test-wikipedia? I only know about the english one. Did not help a second to check if LanguageDE.php is working. Give me another hint.
Third, nothing would stop us from doing emergency bugfixes if absolutely necessary.
Well. That's exactly the problem I see. Last ''good'' example was the kernel. There was a mail about that one of them only supports 500MB and the other 2GB. Unfortunaly Jimbo did't know that, before the reboot - pity. And nobody switched the ''automatic'' (here called default) kernel. Fortunatly someone remembered, but is the default kernel now switched? Are you sure? took a look? - I'm paranoid, I know.
While I like having an admin do things manually, the number of different installations involved and the many people working on CVS code makes this quite tricky. It seems like an obvious job for scripts. It works for Debian, why shouldn't it work for us?
Sorry? What at debian works automaticlly and don't ask all 5 or 10 updates, do you want it this way or that? I have a stable woody running as a server and it ask me questions. Thats not automatic the way you described it.
But (nerver without one), write these nice scripts, get them running, if possible yesterday because I bet the avtive and the CVS version of LanguageDE.php have a diff of at leased 2 weeks, I don't know about the rest. Well, possibly the last changes involved even some patches in other files, I start forgetting these information. I think you will need about a whole day to check the diffs between CVS and the installed version and the english version for _one_ other language. And than still nothing is done.
And I still get querys about some missing translations, which I have to answer: Sorry, everything in CVS for about 2 or 3 weeks. Let's wait. I can't fix it. And I know there is a version of the Language file which needs a patch in the SearchEngine. Simply installing only the Language file won't work.
I don't complain someone personaly, don't missunderstood. I complain that too few of all those guys having access to the machines help Brion with that work. If those guys don't can/want or whatever do it, find one or two others. Or make a script. Clone Brion. Do that twice. But don't wait to long, because users starts easily loosing interests in projects nobody seems to react. You and I, we know about this problems or can imagine them, but others will took a look and say: What, this typo can't be fixed in about 2 weeks? And they have how may Users? Ok, let's go somewhere else. There is no difference between GNU or comecial software, the customers only see how long it tooks to solve the problem.
And I do it the same way. There a code frezze for about 2 weeks now. Noboby knows if Brion and Lee are working on the targets behind that code frezze, or 20 other developers are twiddeling thumbs. And my reaction as a developer? Why starting some further code, if I still not know about the code 3 weeks old? Asking about some coding style guidance, no answers for that mail, so coding restults will be put in CVS and you wait until someone complains. Sorry that's usually no way to work and you switch to another project. (Usually I talk to the project manager, give him a list and say: "call me if the problems on this list are fixed, I took the nice weather to take a nap of sunshine and you know that the customer will be angry if he pays a lot of money for me doing that." Never seen problems fixed that fast ;)
Just call if everthing works as you proposed Erik :)
Thomas Corell wrote:
Well, and currently there are so many with CVS but too few (23 vs 1) checking and installing all those things.
Seems to me we need more people with access to the test server and the live server. (I'd volunteer but for my spectacular muck-up with the french language file!)
--- tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Thomas Corell wrote:
Well, and currently there are so many with CVS but
too few (23 vs 1)
checking and installing all those things.
Seems to me we need more people with access to the test server and the live server. (I'd volunteer but for my spectacular muck-up with the french language file!)
On ne fait pas d'omelette sans casser d'oeufs...
Tarquin, someone au bistro, suggested that our article count was still the coma method. I made a test, and indeed, this page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_de_test_rien_que_pour_moi
counts for one. It contains just ",".
Didnot we vote something on the topic once ?
Why are we still with the old system ?
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Anthere wrote:
On ne fait pas d'omelette sans casser d'oeufs...
I hope I did not need to understand that ;)
Tarquin, someone au bistro, suggested that our article count was still the coma method. I made a test, and indeed, this page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_de_test_rien_que_pour_moi counts for one. It contains just ",". Didnot we vote something on the topic once ?
Well it was done on meta.
Why are we still with the old system ?
As far as I know only the en-wikipedia on the new server is running with the new count system.
On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 13:41, Thomas Corell wrote:
Anthere wrote:
On ne fait pas d'omelette sans casser d'oeufs...
I hope I did not need to understand that ;)
I'm sure you've heard its English version before, "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".
-- John R. Owens http://www.ghiapet.homeip.net/ Sleep is a common substitute for adequate caffeine intake. --John Owens
Tarquin, someone au bistro, suggested that our
article
count was still the coma method. I made a test,
and
indeed, this page
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_de_test_rien_que_pour_moi
counts for one. It contains just ",". Didnot we vote something on the topic once ?
Well it was done on meta.
Why are we still with the old system ?
As far as I know only the en-wikipedia on the new server is running with the new count system.
Ah ?
I must have been dreaming about a vote somewhere, which was 1. supposed to be international 2. initially set up because *the french people* (me essentially) complained some guys were having much fun adding hundred of stupid visible or even invisible commas in articles to have them counted as articles
Ok, this is an stupid issue, but I find quite curious that this topic was initially raised by the french wiki, that so many french people expressed their dislike of this method, that final conclusion was to drop the count system, that we indicated in our talk pages that the count system was changed
just to find oneself totally ridiculous many months later discovering that *nothing* has changed and that the old system is still the one working.
Ok, back to the old fun of seeing non-grammatically correct commas in articles now.
I mean. This is the kind of day I feel very old.
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Anthere wrote:
just to find oneself totally ridiculous many months later discovering that *nothing* has changed and that the old system is still the one working.
Ok, back to the old fun of seeing non-grammatically correct commas in articles now.
I mean. This is the kind of day I feel very old.
It really boils down to this:
we need more copies of Brion.
Thomas Corell wrote:
Well, and currently there are so many with CVS but too few (23 vs 1) checking and installing all those things.
I seems we need some of the 23 people with CVS access to also have server access.
Could Jimbo & other people who currently have access suggest who they'd like from the current list of CVS-people? Could people volunteer themselves?
tarquin wrote:
Thomas Corell wrote:
Well, and currently there are so many with CVS but too few (23 vs 1) checking and installing all those things.
I seems we need some of the 23 people with CVS access to also have server access.
Could Jimbo & other people who currently have access suggest who they'd like from the current list of CVS-people? Could people volunteer themselves?
A good way before asking for volunteers could be a to make clear what different possibilities exists on the server(s).
It's nearly like these 'developer' states: - Developer on Sourceforge - Developer on spezific Wikipedia
Nealy nowhere you can get infos about that, instead of e.g. how to get Administrator / Sysop. Not everybody ( I know at least someone how does *grin innocently at some mirror* )likes to volunteer without knowing what is possible and what is expected.
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