(cc'd to mediawiki-i18n mailing list too)
In r30349, Raymond fixed bug 10365 ( https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365), allowing Special:Version to be localized. However, I am not sure how smart an idea that was, since nowadays almost every extension has a description message. Why so?
Firstly, let's have a look at WikiTextLoggedInOut extension ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/WikiTextLoggedInO...). It is a simple parser hook extension from Wikia I added on 30th of June to the SVN repository. It adds two parser hooks that show different output to the user depending on his/her login status. How simple is that? Well, it has a description message too. It is a simple parser hook tag that does not need i18n at all, unlike special page extensions and such do.
Secondly, some extensions, such as the above-mentioned WikiTextLoggedInOut have only one message... the description message. Now, with the i18n file being added, the extension's i18n gets loaded on every pageload if the page has the extension tag. I am relatively sure that it slows things down. Maybe only a few milliseconds, but the point is that it can be avoided.
Thirdly, what if the original developer wants or needs to change the extension description, upon adding or removing some features? That's right, some languages would see old messages with incorrect information while some other languages might have correct info. And users might end up trying to use a removed feature, which would obviously cause them frustration. After all, you cannot demand that volunteer translators do translations 24 hours per day. In fact, we already have several developers continuously working on i18n, desperately trying to keep them in sync - resources that would be much better spent on developing new functionality and fixing bugs.
I have heard an interesting argument in favor of description messages: that they allow the wiki users to know what features are installed and what they can use. Now, I don't think that's true. The local help pages are for documentation and so are the extension pages on MediaWiki.org. If something should be done, the local admins/sysadmins should create a help page about the feature or announce it and maybe point the users to MediaWiki.org for more information if they don't create a help page or such.
I have spoken to several fellow MediaWiki / extension developers, some native English speakers and some are not, but most of them seem to agree that the localization of Special:Version is "i18n gone bad". I have to agree with them, as description messages do not provide anything useful for users or developers - having, for example, the words "MWSearch plugin" in 39 different languages ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/MWSearch/MWSearch...) is probably one of the most pathological examples. These extension description messages just cause extra stress for MediaWiki and the servers running MediaWiki. In the past, you could always find at least one English page on the wiki, no matter what its content language was - Special:Version. Now you have to add ?uselang=en to see the 'correct' version of the page.
Another interesting and related point is the addition of core 'blank' page in r36856 (http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=36856) by Domas. He added the blank special page as a baseline to profile startup times. He used to use Special:Version for profiling, but since it's overloaded with useless i18n crap now, it is no longer effective.
If there is something that should be translated in Special:Version, it most certainly is not extension descriptions. It is the license text. And to avoid legal issues, it should have a hardcoded English string, for example, "The English version of the license can be found here" or something. As a user, I would like to know my legal rights rather than of what parts the software is made of.
I believe that the description message / localization of Special:Version does more harm than it does good, plus it is pointless (as Rob Church correctly pointed out in his initial reaction: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365#c1). I would request that this would be removed from core.
Perhaps we should remove all localization, after all its completely stupid and useless - just a total waste of resources.
MinuteElectron.
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:31 PM, MinuteElectron minuteelectron@googlemail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should remove all localization, after all its completely stupid and useless - just a total waste of resources.
I think you can come up with a more reasonable response than that.
Jack Phoenix wrote:
(cc'd to mediawiki-i18n mailing list too)
In r30349, Raymond fixed bug 10365 ( https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365), allowing Special:Version to be localized. However, I am not sure how smart an idea that was, since nowadays almost every extension has a description message. Why so?
Firstly, let's have a look at WikiTextLoggedInOut extension ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/WikiTextLoggedInO...). It is a simple parser hook extension from Wikia I added on 30th of June to the SVN repository. It adds two parser hooks that show different output to the user depending on his/her login status. How simple is that? Well, it has a description message too. It is a simple parser hook tag that does not need i18n at all, unlike special page extensions and such do.
A description message for such an extension would be quite useful, it could list what the two parser functions are and provide brief information about what it is used for - this makes it possible for an end user to discover what a given parser function does if they encounter one while editing. Even if the extension had a page on MediaWiki.org they are rarely translated, providing a localized description on Special:Version allows users who are unable to comprehend English to know what the parser function does and to find out quickly - maximizing productivity.
Secondly, some extensions, such as the above-mentioned WikiTextLoggedInOut have only one message... the description message. Now, with the i18n file being added, the extension's i18n gets loaded on every pageload if the page has the extension tag. I am relatively sure that it slows things down. Maybe only a few milliseconds, but the point is that it can be avoided.
One could say this about almost anything, and is not really a valid argument. Sure, it could be avoided, but if it provides a desirable feature (which this certainly is, otherwise it wouldn't have been implemented) then I don't see why it should be removed.
Thirdly, what if the original developer wants or needs to change the extension description, upon adding or removing some features? That's right, some languages would see old messages with incorrect information while some other languages might have correct info. And users might end up trying to use a removed feature, which would obviously cause them frustration. After all, you cannot demand that volunteer translators do translations 24 hours per day. In fact, we already have several developers continuously working on i18n, desperately trying to keep them in sync - resources that would be much better spent on developing new functionality and fixing bugs.
When the developer changes the message they could remove all translated versions of it (I know, more hassle, but this could be automated), doing so would void this issue. In any case some description even if it is slightly inaccurate could be more useful than not having one at all; you'd also be surprised at how quickly stuff gets translated.
I have heard an interesting argument in favor of description messages: that they allow the wiki users to know what features are installed and what they can use. Now, I don't think that's true. The local help pages are for documentation and so are the extension pages on MediaWiki.org. If something should be done, the local admins/sysadmins should create a help page about the feature or announce it and maybe point the users to MediaWiki.org for more information if they don't create a help page or such.
Maybe they could, but this again adds more work for the end users that could easily be avoided by the current method - MediaWiki.org is also very sketchy about most things and difficult for the average user to navigate. Description messages are also more well translated than pages on MediaWiki.org making them more useful for this purpose.
I have spoken to several fellow MediaWiki / extension developers, some native English speakers and some are not, but most of them seem to agree that the localization of Special:Version is "i18n gone bad". I have to agree with them, as description messages do not provide anything useful for users or developers - having, for example, the words "MWSearch plugin" in 39 different languages ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/MWSearch/MWSearch...) is probably one of the most pathological examples. These extension description messages just cause extra stress for MediaWiki and the servers running MediaWiki. In the past, you could always find at least one English page on the wiki, no matter what its content language was - Special:Version. Now you have to add ?uselang=en to see the 'correct' version of the page.
On the contrary, they do provide useful information for users of the wiki (at least the ones that are well thought out do). You are free to change and description message you think is inadequate, so your example could easily be fixed. Can you also explain why an English page on any wiki is needed, I don't see why?
Another interesting and related point is the addition of core 'blank' page in r36856 (http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=36856) by Domas. He added the blank special page as a baseline to profile startup times. He used to use Special:Version for profiling, but since it's overloaded with useless i18n crap now, it is no longer effective.
I don't think labeling it "crap" is a very fair comment. Special:Version was never intended as a profile baseline, that just came as a side-effect of its original incarnation; Special:Version already had extra stuff which made it inaccurate as a baseline anyway even before its i18n being introduced.
If there is something that should be translated in Special:Version, it most certainly is not extension descriptions. It is the license text. And to avoid legal issues, it should have a hardcoded English string, for example, "The English version of the license can be found here" or something. As a user, I would like to know my legal rights rather than of what parts the software is made of.
You are free to do this, as of yet obviously no one has felt a pressing need to change this.
I believe that the description message / localization of Special:Version does more harm than it does good, plus it is pointless (as Rob Church correctly pointed out in his initial reaction: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365#c1). I would request that this would be removed from core.
And many would disagree with having it removed.
I would also like to apologize for my earlier outburst, this was unfair of me and I should have known better.
MinuteElectron.
On 03/07/2008, Jack Phoenix wikia.jack@gmail.com wrote:
Secondly, some extensions, such as the above-mentioned WikiTextLoggedInOut have only one message... the description message. Now, with the i18n file being added, the extension's i18n gets loaded on every pageload if the page has the extension tag. I am relatively sure that it slows things down. Maybe only a few milliseconds, but the point is that it can be avoided.
Where did you get that? It doesn't load messages itself, so only places where the message is loaded is those who call loadAllMessages(), like Special:Version.
Thirdly, what if the original developer wants or needs to change the extension description, upon adding or removing some features? That's right, some languages would see old messages with incorrect information while some other languages might have correct info. And users might end up trying to use a removed feature, which would obviously cause them frustration. After all, you cannot demand that volunteer translators do translations 24 hours per day. In fact, we already have several developers continuously working on i18n, desperately trying to keep them in sync - resources that would be much better spent on developing new functionality and fixing bugs.
How is this different from other messages changing?
I have spoken to several fellow MediaWiki / extension developers, some native English speakers and some are not, but most of them seem to agree that the localization of Special:Version is "i18n gone bad".
How about talking to those who do i18n or the users who actually read those messages?
I have to agree with them, as description messages do not provide anything useful for users or developers - having, for example, the words "MWSearch plugin" in 39 different languages ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/MWSearch/MWSearch...) is probably one of the most pathological examples.
Having proper descriptions is of course important, but not a proper reason to stop translating them.
These extension
description messages just cause extra stress for MediaWiki and the servers running MediaWiki.
Do you have hard facts to provide that the stress is not insignificant. I think we have optimised message loading quite well already.
In the past, you could always find at least one English page on the wiki, no matter what its content language was - Special:Version. Now you have to add ?uselang=en to see the 'correct' version of the page.
Can't understand the point of this.
Another interesting and related point is the addition of core 'blank' page in r36856 (http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=36856) by Domas. He added the blank special page as a baseline to profile startup times. He used to use Special:Version for profiling, but since it's overloaded with useless i18n crap now, it is no longer effective.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't noticed any i18n crapped added to it other what there were when he first added it.
If there is something that should be translated in Special:Version, it most certainly is not extension descriptions. It is the license text. And to avoid legal issues, it should have a hardcoded English string, for example, "The English version of the license can be found here" or something. As a user, I would like to know my legal rights rather than of what parts the software is made of.
Users usually don't touch the code at all, so why would they be more interested in the software license than in the features available? In any case, not relevant to this case.
I believe that the description message / localization of Special:Version does more harm than it does good, plus it is pointless (as Rob Church correctly pointed out in his initial reaction: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365#c1). I would request that this would be removed from core.
You probably don't know what Rob Church has previously stated about i18n and l10n?
Also, translators will be very happy if you throw their work away. You should know how much translators care for their work, as you have translated yourself, even if you are hesitant to work collaboratively.
Hoi. When I read this post, it is obviously by someone for whom Internationalisation and localisation is something of an after thought and not a crucially important feature of the MediaWiki software. The characterisation of "developers continuously working on i18n, desperately trying to keep them in sync - resources that would be much better spent on developing new functionality and fixing bugs" makes it blatantly obvious that internationalisation and localisation is considered secundary.
With more then half of the Wikipedia content in languages other then English, it should be clear that these developers are working on probably the most important feature of MediaWiki because their work affects more then half of the content and when you look at traffic numbers according to Alexa, 48% of the traffic is for the non English language wikipedias. Localisation is key for Wikipedia and for the Wikimedia Foundation. As these "desperate" developers are volunteers themselves, as they have been able to increase the quality of the localisation, as they have improved the localisation environment for translators at Betawiki, as they have increased the number of extensions that are now supported for internationalisation and localisation I fail to see how they can be seen as desperate; they are proving themselves to be among the most valuable developers we have. Their work impacts more then half our users .
In conclusion, it is thanks to these developers and the localisers that MediaWiki and Wikipedia is this useful. They maintain a cornerstone of the MediaWiki software. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Jack Phoenix wikia.jack@gmail.com wrote:
(cc'd to mediawiki-i18n mailing list too)
In r30349, Raymond fixed bug 10365 ( https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365), allowing Special:Version to be localized. However, I am not sure how smart an idea that was, since nowadays almost every extension has a description message. Why so?
Firstly, let's have a look at WikiTextLoggedInOut extension (
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/WikiTextLoggedInO... ). It is a simple parser hook extension from Wikia I added on 30th of June to the SVN repository. It adds two parser hooks that show different output to the user depending on his/her login status. How simple is that? Well, it has a description message too. It is a simple parser hook tag that does not need i18n at all, unlike special page extensions and such do.
Secondly, some extensions, such as the above-mentioned WikiTextLoggedInOut have only one message... the description message. Now, with the i18n file being added, the extension's i18n gets loaded on every pageload if the page has the extension tag. I am relatively sure that it slows things down. Maybe only a few milliseconds, but the point is that it can be avoided.
Thirdly, what if the original developer wants or needs to change the extension description, upon adding or removing some features? That's right, some languages would see old messages with incorrect information while some other languages might have correct info. And users might end up trying to use a removed feature, which would obviously cause them frustration. After all, you cannot demand that volunteer translators do translations 24 hours per day. In fact, we already have several developers continuously working on i18n, desperately trying to keep them in sync - resources that would be much better spent on developing new functionality and fixing bugs.
I have heard an interesting argument in favor of description messages: that they allow the wiki users to know what features are installed and what they can use. Now, I don't think that's true. The local help pages are for documentation and so are the extension pages on MediaWiki.org. If something should be done, the local admins/sysadmins should create a help page about the feature or announce it and maybe point the users to MediaWiki.org for more information if they don't create a help page or such.
I have spoken to several fellow MediaWiki / extension developers, some native English speakers and some are not, but most of them seem to agree that the localization of Special:Version is "i18n gone bad". I have to agree with them, as description messages do not provide anything useful for users or developers - having, for example, the words "MWSearch plugin" in 39 different languages (
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/MWSearch/MWSearch... ) is probably one of the most pathological examples. These extension description messages just cause extra stress for MediaWiki and the servers running MediaWiki. In the past, you could always find at least one English page on the wiki, no matter what its content language was - Special:Version. Now you have to add ?uselang=en to see the 'correct' version of the page.
Another interesting and related point is the addition of core 'blank' page in r36856 ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=36856) by Domas. He added the blank special page as a baseline to profile startup times. He used to use Special:Version for profiling, but since it's overloaded with useless i18n crap now, it is no longer effective.
If there is something that should be translated in Special:Version, it most certainly is not extension descriptions. It is the license text. And to avoid legal issues, it should have a hardcoded English string, for example, "The English version of the license can be found here" or something. As a user, I would like to know my legal rights rather than of what parts the software is made of.
I believe that the description message / localization of Special:Version does more harm than it does good, plus it is pointless (as Rob Church correctly pointed out in his initial reaction: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10365#c1). I would request that this would be removed from core.
-- Jack Phoenix _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Jack Phoenix wrote:
Another interesting and related point is the addition of core 'blank' page in r36856 (http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=36856) by Domas. He added the blank special page as a baseline to profile startup times. He used to use Special:Version for profiling, but since it's overloaded with useless i18n crap now, it is no longer effective.
This is not about i18n, but about the giant neverending pile of tables of stuff. (This has been somewhat reduced now by removing the lit of every single attached hook.)
-- brion
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org