Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks. Andrei

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com> wrote: When pages are parsed, the parsed version is cached, since parsing can take a long time (sometimes > 10 s). Some preferences change how pages are parsed, so different copies need to be stored based on those preferences. If these settings are all default for you, you'll be using the same parser cache copies as anonymous users, so you're extremely likely to get a parser cache hit. If any of them is non-default, you'll only get a parser cache hit if someone with your exact parser-related preferences viewed the page since it was last changed; otherwise it will have to reparse the page just for you, which will take a long time. This is probably a bad thing. I'd think that most of the settings that fragment the parser cache should be implementable in a post-processing stage, which should be more than fast enough to run on parser cache hits as well as misses. But we don't have such a thing.

Domas Mituzas wrote: We have a couple of options: {$edit}{$printable} which do in fact the same (remove the sections edit links), so they could be merged. Additionally, the non-editsection version can be retrieved from the editsectioned one with a preg_replace. So yes, I think it can be simplified without even affecting the poor CSSless users.

Alex Brollo wrote: That's pretty much the purpose of the caching servers. -- ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

Hi! I can a bit elaborate on what Daniel said. Whenever anyone edits a page, there're (simplistic view) of three caches that get populated. 1. Revision text cache (for operations like diffs, re-parsing for other settings, etc) 2. Parser cache (for logged in users) 3. Edge HTTP cache - squid (for anonymous users) So, anonymous users get "completely devoid of user preferences" pages, as they are simply defaults. Do note, even though squid cache objects can vary based on accept-encoding (we narrowed it down to two versions from 10 few years ago ;-), they map to single parser cache object. Parser cache hit may take under 50ms to deliver by backend mediawiki. Logged in users though bypass our squids, if they don't mess up with their preferences, usually hit same parser cache objects - there's an extremely high chance of that. Now, if you change single setting that affects parser cache variation, the 'extremely high chance' switches to missing those objects - as there has to be someone with same settings as you to visit it before. Delivering parser cache miss may take from 50ms to 50s, which is what jidanni probably hits. So, we may have 1000x slower performance for our users because they don't really know about our caching internals. Our only hope is that most of them are also ignorant that those settings exist ;-) There'd be of course another workaround - precaching objects for every variation, at extremely high cost for relatively low impact. Alternative is either having warning icon whenever people are in slow-perf mode that they'd be able to hide, or eliminating the choice (you know, the killing features business, that quite often works really well!!! ;-) Domas

Hi! Do note, once you log out, you still have a cookie that prohibits edge caching, I think ;-) Don't hit "reload" button, thats what it does - reloads all assets. What kind of connection do you have? On a simple eastern european dsl I get under 1s rendering times. Though indeed we could have some more work done for first-load performance, which you are measuring with 'reload', it may not be absolute priority, as no skin assets are loaded on any subsequent page views. Domas

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists(a)gmail.com> wrote: Or we could just store an intermediate form in the parser cache, and apply the settings afterwards. For instance, one preference is "enable section edit links". If instead of outputting HTML, the parser stuck a string like "\001SECTIONEDIT1\001" where the first section edit link goes, we could do preg_replace($page, '/\001SECTIONEDIT(\d+)\001/", $replacement), where $replacement = 'blah blah blah $1 blah blah blah' or '' according to user preference. Then we could use the same parser cache for everyone. I think almost all if not all the parser-changing prefs could be implemented this way, preg_replace_callback() at worst. So we don't have to remove features, probably. In fact, we can even add features, like {{USERNAME}}. It wouldn't work for {{#ifeq:{{USERNAME}}|Simetrical|You're awesome!|}} or anything, but fine for "Hello, {{USERNAME}}, welcome to Wikipedia!" As long as we keep it down to preg_replace(), or better yet require it to be one big single-pass strtr() for all such settings, it should have no noticeable performance impact even if we add lots and lots of features like this.

David Goodman wrote: The preferences that can -combined- make you unique[1] are: math preference, date format, auto-number headings, user language, image thumbnail size. Interestingly, the stub threshold supposedly does not affect it [2]. Additionally, being or not in the secure server acts as another preference. 1-Taken from User::getPageRenderingHash() 2-That is what a comment there says, but take it with a grain of salt.

On 31/07/10, Platonides wrote: I have just commited r70783 which makes you unique only if you are using preferences different than the default *that are actually used* on that page. So having a non-default math option no longer makes you unique on the thousands of pages without <math> tags. Reviews and actual numbers of parser cache increase welcome.

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Aryeh Gregor &lt;Simetrical+wikilist(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: So you're telling my theoretical logged-in-reader to use default prefs, or log out, when the reason they are a logged-in-reader is so they can control their preferences..! Someone who sets their stub threshold to 357 is their own performance enemy. Surely there are a few common 'preference sets' which large numbers of readers use? How many people only look at the front page in the morning, and jump to a few pages from there..? There are plenty of pages which change more than once per minute, however I'd expect a much higher threshold, variable based on the volume of page activity, or some other mechanism to determine whether the cached version is acceptably stale for the logged-in-reader. There is no infrastructure required for extra stale entries. If the viewer is happy to accept the slightly stale revision for there chosen prefs, serve it. If not, reparse. Not on frequently changing pages. many edits can occur while I am pulling the page down the wire. I then need to read the page to find this error. -- John Vandenberg

Aryeh Gregor wrote: Yes, I have some ideas on how to improve it. In fact, setting the stub threshold to anything disables the parser cache. You can only hit it when it is set to 0. Aryeh, can you do some statistics about the frequency of the different stub thresholds? Perhaps restricted to people which edited this year, to discard unused accounts.

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Roan Kattouw &lt;roan.kattouw(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Isn't stub threshold a *reading* preference? It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that someone could have that preference set and not regularly edit. Also doesn't take into account people who haven't changed their preferences in a long time (and thus aren't in user_props yet) -Chad

2010/8/1 Aryeh Gregor &lt;Simetrical+wikilist(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: Ah yes, I forgot about that. I was assuming you'd need access to the live DB for this. I don't know. Cursory inspection seems to indicate user_properties is relatively complete, but comprehensive count queries are too slow for me to dare run them on the cluster. Maybe you could run something along the lines of SELECT COUNT(DISTINCT up_user) FROM user_properties; on the toolserver and compare it with SELECT COUNT(*) FROM user; Maybe; but the fact that the field is present but set to 0 in the parser cache key is very weird. SVN blame should probably be able to tell who did this and hopefully why. Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Roan Kattouw &lt;roan.kattouw(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: That won't work, because it won't count users whose settings are all default. However, we can tell who's switched because user_options will be empty. On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Platonides &lt;Platonides(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Aha, that must be it. Any stub threshold would require extra page invalidation, which we don't do because it would be pointlessly expensive. Postprocessing would fix the problem. Yep. Or parse further, but leave markers lingering in the output somehow. We don't need to cache the actual wikitext, either way. We just need to cache at some point after all the heavy lifting has been done, and everything that's left can be done in a couple of milliseconds.

Hi! In theory if all properties are at defaults, user shouldn't be there. The actual check should be against the blob field. Domas

;-) thats what happens when email gets ahead of coffee. Domas

Hi! Great idea, how come noone ever came up with this, I even have a stylesheet ready, here it is (do note, even it looks big in text, gzip gets it down to 10% so we can support this kind of granularity even up to a megabyte :) Domas a { color: blue } a.1_byte_article { color: red; } a.2_byte_article { color: red; } a.3_byte_article { color: red; } a.4_byte_article { color: red; } a.5_byte_article { color: red; } a.6_byte_article { color: red; } a.7_byte_article { color: red; } a.8_byte_article { color: red; } a.9_byte_article { color: red; } a.10_byte_article { color: red; } a.11_byte_article { color: red; } a.12_byte_article { color: red; } a.13_byte_article { color: red; } a.14_byte_article { color: red; } a.15_byte_article { color: red; } a.16_byte_article { color: red; } a.17_byte_article { color: red; } a.18_byte_article { color: red; } a.19_byte_article { color: red; } a.20_byte_article { color: red; } a.21_byte_article { color: red; } a.22_byte_article { color: red; } a.23_byte_article { color: red; 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On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:55 PM, K. Peachey &lt;p858snake(a)yahoo.com.au&gt; wrote: using an abbreviation like <x>ba would also help. Limiting the user pref to intervals of 10 bytes would also help. Also, as this piece of CSS is being dynamically generated,it only needs to include the variations that occur in the body of the article's HTML. Or the CSS can be generated by JS on the client side, which is what Aryeh has been suggesting all along (I think). btw, I thought Domas was kidding. I got a chuckle out of it, at least. -- John Vandenberg

Lars Aronsson wrote: That would be workable, eg. one class for articles smaller than 50 bytes, other for 100, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 1000, 2000, 2500, 5000, 10000 if it weren't for having to update all those classes whenever the page changes. It would work to add it as a separate stylesheet for stubs, though.

Roan Kattouw wrote: Thanks, Roan. I think that the condition should have been the inverse (users with recent edits, not users which don't have old edits) but anyway it shows that with a few (8-10) values we could please almost everyone. Also, it shows that people don't understand how to disable it. The tail has many extremely large values which can only mean "don't treat stubs different".

AG> Fortunately, the major slowdown is parser cache misses, not Squid AG> cache misses. To avoid parser cache misses, just make sure you don't AG> change parser-affecting preferences to non-default values. (We don't AG> say which these are, of course . . .) Hmmm, maybe they're there amongst the "!"s below. $ lynx --source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page | grep parser Expensive parser function count: 44/500 <!-- Saved in parser cache with key enwiki:pcache:idhash:15580374-0!3!0!default!1!en!4!edit=0 and timestamp 20100731001330 -->

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Aryeh Gregor &lt;Simetrical+wikilist(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Could we add a logged-in-reader mode, for people who are infrequent contributors but wish to be logged in for the prefs. They could be served a slightly old cached version of the page when one is available for their prefs. e.g. if the cached version is less than a minute old. The down side is that if they see an error, it may already be fixed. OTOH, if the page is being revised frequently, the same is likely to happen anyway. The text could be stale before it hits the wire due to parsing delay. For pending changes, the pref 'Always show the latest accepted revision (if there is one) of a page by default' could be enabled by default. Was there any discussion about the default setting for this pref? -- John Vandenberg

On 2 August 2010 13:25, Domas Mituzas &lt;midom.lists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Maybe a theme can get the individual icons that the theme use, and combine it all in a single png file. Updating any icon on that theme would result on updating the whole "combine" image ( I herd ImageMagick have a tool just for that, so can be scripted). This seems what sites like www.google.com and www.gmail.com are doing. I say theme, because I suppose all other images live in a wiki world and can't be combined that way. Maybe the idea than resource=file must die in 2011 internet :-/ -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Roan Kattouw &lt;roan.kattouw(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Does that approach gain much over HTTP pipelining? -- John Vandenberg

On 2 August 2010 15:24, Roan Kattouw &lt;roan.kattouw(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: ... :-O That is awesome solution, considering the complex of the real world problems. Elegant, and probably as side effect may remove some bloat. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje.

2010/8/11 Tei &lt;oscar.vives(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: That would get complicated with Squid cache AFAIK. One redirect (which is also a 301 Moved Permanently, which means clients may cache the redirect destination) isn't that bad, right? I'll quote my own post from this thread: We're aware of this problem, or we wouldn't be spending paid developers' time on this resource loader project. I'm assuming you mean 304 (Not Modified)? 302 (Found) means the same as 301 except it's not cacheable. We're not intending to do many requests resulting in 304s, we're intending on reducing the number of requests made and on keeping the long client-side cache expiry times (Cache-Control: maxage=largenumber) that we already use. Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

2010/8/11 Aryeh Gregor &lt;Simetrical+wikilist(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: Is that a server-side redirect, or is it done in JS? In the latter case, it taking long would make sense, and would actually be slowed down by moving all <script> tags to the bottom (incidentally, that's what I've done today in the resourceloader branch). Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

Aryeh Gregor wrote: It is a javascript (see extensions/WikimediaMobile) Plus, those browsers won't be too optimized.

On 12 August 2010 00:01, Domas Mituzas &lt;midom.lists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: ... I am not dissapointed. The wiki model make it hard, because everything can be modified, because the whole thing is giganteous and have a innertia, and the need to support a giganteous list of languages that will make the United Nations looks like timid. And I know you guys are a awesome bunch. And lots of eyes has ben put on the problems. This make mediawiki a ideal scenario to think about tecniques to make the web faster. Heres a cookie, a really nice plugin for firebug to check speed. http://code.google.com/p/page-speed/ -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje.

AG> Facebook... Speaking of which, I hear they compile their PHP for extra speed. Anyway, http://www.useit.com/alertbox/response-times.html mentions the pain of reading slow sites.

On 2 August 2010 12:13, Oldak Quill &lt;oldakquill(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: An addendum to the above message: According to the Alexa.com help page "Average Load Times: Speed Statistics" (http://www.alexa.com/help/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1042)042): "The Average Load Time ... [is] based on load times experienced by Alexa users, and measured by the Alexa Toolbar, during their regular web browsing." So although US browsers might be overrepresented in this sample (I'm just guessing, I have no figures to support this statement), the Alexa sample should include many non-US browsers, assuming that the figure reported by Alexa.com is reflective of its userbase. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)