Hi folks,
I can choose either infinite or indefinite block, it is being logged publicly as infinite. Once we have two different types, they should be logged separately. Indefinite blocks are ususally connected to some condition, such as changing an unacceptable name, and the public infinite appearance sometimes causes misunterstandings among users. Is it a bug or a feature?
As far as I can see, the durations of user blocks that do not expire are consistently labelled as "indefinite" on Special:Log, at least in English. Can you say where you see the public logging you're referring to?
(MediaWiki mixes "indefinite" and "infinite" in some other places though. I don't think that's intentional, the software was just written by many different people and they didn't all worry about such details.)
On 2024-06-27 11:28, Bináris wrote:
Hi folks,
I can choose either infinite or indefinite block, it is being logged publicly as infinite. Once we have two different types, they should be logged separately. Indefinite blocks are ususally connected to some condition, such as changing an unacceptable name, and the public infinite appearance sometimes causes misunterstandings among users. Is it a bug or a feature?
-- Bináris
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In Hungarian it is infinite. Calling both indefinite is just as misleading, translate it anyhow. The main thing is that two block options have the same manifestation in the log (I suppose, in the database, too).
Bartosz Dziewoński matma.rex@gmail.com ezt írta (időpont: 2024. jún. 27., Cs, 15:08):
As far as I can see, the durations of user blocks that do not expire are consistently labelled as "indefinite" on Special:Log, at least in English. Can you say where you see the public logging you're referring to?
(MediaWiki mixes "indefinite" and "infinite" in some other places though. I don't think that's intentional, the software was just written by many different people and they didn't all worry about such details.)
On 2024-06-27 11:28, Bináris wrote:
Hi folks,
I can choose either infinite or indefinite block, it is being logged publicly as infinite. Once we have two different types, they should be logged separately. Indefinite blocks are ususally connected to some condition, such as changing an unacceptable name, and the public infinite appearance sometimes causes misunterstandings among users. Is it a bug or a feature?
-- Bináris
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-- Bartosz Dziewoński
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Somebody decided to display separate infinite and indefinite block time in dropdown menu. I suppose, that had to be intentional, but is not represented. I do see the difference between them as I wrote above, so displaying both properly would be a better choice IMHO than simplifying the dropdown menu to one option; the current solution is not good anyway.
I’m not sure if I understand your question, but is is a fact that Tgr added separate “indefinite” duration to the offered drop-down list on huwiki in 2008. < https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Ipboptions&diff=pre... Whether you consider good or bad, you can discuss that on huwiki, since it is huwiki’s local customization; MediaWiki contains only “indefinite” in the default list, https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Ipboptions with “végtelen” in the current built-in Hungarian translation. < https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Ipboptions/hu%3E
While I understand the user doing the blocking might be able to distinguish two different _intentions_ (blocking “indefinitely” and “forever”), these can be explained in the blocking reason. And as a matter of fact, no block in MediaWiki is truly “infinite/forever”, you can always unblock the user anytime later. Which is what is meant by “indefinite”.
And if I am not mistaken, offering both options in the dropdown list does not make much sense because it does not work anyway: the dropdown list is just a suggestion, a shortcut; but you are able to choose _any_ expiration date, and it does not matter if/what you chose in the dropdown, only the result. Which means whether you chose “végtelen” or “határozatlan”, the end result is the same: the block is “indefinite”, and is shown as “végtelen” in the block list, because that is the way in(de)finite blocks are presented. https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Infiniteblock/hu (Yep, right, in English texts, “indefinite” and “infinite” seem to be randomly mixed in the different messages.)
HTH, -- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]
There are a number of ways to express infinity in MediaWiki APIs/forms ("infinite", "indefinite", "infinity", "never") but it's normalized during input processing and there is no distinction between infinite and indefinite in the business logic and database.
This is a perpetual source of confusion. We would do well to eliminate the duplicate menu items on the block screen. Is that something that's built into the MediaWiki software or just part of the per-wiki interface?
On Jun 27, 2024, at 11:13 AM, Gergő Tisza gtisza@gmail.com wrote:
There are a number of ways to express infinity in MediaWiki APIs/forms ("infinite", "indefinite", "infinity", "never") but it's normalized during input processing and there is no distinction between infinite and indefinite in the business logic and database. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 5:44 PM Roy Smith roy@panix.com wrote:
This is a perpetual source of confusion. We would do well to eliminate the duplicate menu items on the block screen. Is that something that's built into the MediaWiki software or just part of the per-wiki interface?
Accepting multiple keywords for "never expires" is built into the software (see ExpiryDef). The default i18n message for block options only includes one such option.
"infinte" means "never expires", and with this it is a defined value. "indefinite" means "expiry not known", and with this it is an undefined value.
Am Fr., 28. Juni 2024 um 14:38 Uhr schrieb Gergő Tisza gtisza@gmail.com:
On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 5:44 PM Roy Smith roy@panix.com wrote:
This is a perpetual source of confusion. We would do well to eliminate the duplicate menu items on the block screen. Is that something that's built into the MediaWiki software or just part of the per-wiki interface?
Accepting multiple keywords for "never expires" is built into the software (see ExpiryDef). The default i18n message for block options only includes one such option. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
petr.kadlec@gmail.com ezt írta (időpont: 2024. jún. 27., Cs, 16:49):
I’m not sure if I understand your question, but is is a fact that Tgr added separate “indefinite” duration to the offered drop-down list on huwiki in 2008. < https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Ipboptions&diff=pre... Whether you consider good or bad, you can discuss that on huwiki, since it is huwiki’s local customization; MediaWiki contains only “indefinite” in the default list, https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Ipboptions with “végtelen” in the current built-in Hungarian translation. < https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Ipboptions/hu%3E
Thank you for the explanation. I never thought this list was within the
scope of admins; as only the "edit block reasons" link appears on the page, I believed that dropdown of times was created by the software and is general. But it was only tricky hidden from me. So the problem never existed in the form I believed; instead, there is another problem which I can solve. Thank you!
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