On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bináris <wikiposta(a)gmail.com> wrote: I'll write up some notes... The first thing is to *test your pages on mobile*. The least one can do is fire up a page in *.m.wikipedia.org in a desktop browser and make the window narrow. Or, use your smartphone's browser if you have one. Often, things can be reworked to cleanly handle both wide and narrow windows; for instance: * using inline-block or floats instead of tables or fixed percentage widths to set things side-by-side Sometimes it may be necessary to make the style more complex, using media queries to do separate styling for wide or narrow screens (google for "CSS media queries" to see how all this works). Currently there's no way to do media queries in inline style attributes, which makes things hard for templates. If your template uses styles defined in MediaWiki:Common.css / MediaWiki:Mobile.css you can define separate style overrides there, but you have to be an admin to edit those etc so it's harder to deal with. -- brion

On 7 October 2014 23:12, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: In the recent past, I've done a *lot* of work on en.WP, encouraging the community to delete or merge redundant templates. I'm happy to hepl with doing so for quote templates. BTW, I've generally found that en.Wikipedia editors are unaware that we have a different appearance on mobile, much less are willing to take that into account when writing pages or making templates. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

On 7 October 2014 23:12, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Now down to 49, with several "Template for Deletion" discussions ongoing. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Sadly I only have template edit rights on my staff account and I really don't like using that account. In addition to this there are hundreds of copies of the template I fix so this becomes a nightmare.

Jon, Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough to fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and he will try to get you the rights that you need. Regarding the broader issue of the fact that there are thousands of these kinds of templates, I will also echo Brion! We need to make mobile testing more visible to those who are creating those templates. Dan On 7 October 2014 15:14, Brion Vibber <bvibber(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: -- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

On 7 Oct 2014 18:15, "Jon Robson" <jrobson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: template to to and other than me :) into Common.CSS which only really makes sense for widely used templates... Ideally I'd want some kind of sanity checking rather than doing it live which seems to be the current status quo. Changing HTML /CSS/JavaScript [without any kind of review] always felt uncomfortable to me. these testing wrote: is fixed. act and friendly? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templa… and put look

On Oct 7, 2014 10:03 PM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Umm, is that really a good idea? Protected templates are protected for a reason usually (at least on projects that ive worked on. Can't speak for enwiki). {{Editprotected}} seems like a better option for those, even if simply for political reasons, and if you find yourself making a lot of such requests why not ask the community how it feels about giving out advanced rights. Imho, wmf granted advanced rights should be reserved for more serious issues than purely asethetic ones. I agree with the setiment of just being bold for unprotected templates. --bawolff

Well… I would say you should fix it.. but editing the wiki is not like editing the source code of MediaWiki. There are conventions and methodologies in templates can be quite unfamiliar or unknown to developers. In the past, staff has made a couple mistakes here, so people tend to keep an eye on it. If the community can trust you to not make mistakes, they generally accept any edit. Learn and build trust by: 1: Discuss problems on the talkpage. (You can leave a ‘please look at this talkpage’ note on VP/T). 2: Use the sandbox to illustrate your discussion when that makes sense. 3: If there is positive agreement or no response, yet you feel confident, then make the edit. Or make the editrequest. 4: Keep checking in for a few days to verify if there has been any fallout. Don’t disappear, if you are making edits to the wiki, you are part of the wiki. 5: Remember that you need to do this for EACH AND EVERY individual wiki… DJ

Helder wrote: Yes, a million times this. We must figure out a way to centralize templates so that maintenance is easier. The current system of per-project wiki templates really strains under scale as many wikis have few active editors and most of them are not technical. Regarding inline styling specifically, I feel like we had this exact conversation a year ago on Bugzilla or wikitech-l. As I recall, the gist of the previous discussion was that we need to better educate users about what good practice is, perhaps provide testing better tools (make it easier to see how it looks on mobile, as Brion suggests), and then slowly try to deprecate inline styling over the next few years. I'm curious to see where the "Allow styling in templates" request for comments goes (cf. <https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?curid=130320>), particularly with regard to the goal of atomizing content, which I think the Parsoid and VisualEditor (Editing!) teams seem to want. While I probably generally agree with trying to kill inline styling, it does have seem to have a convenient advantage of being more easily encapsulated. Related: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35704 MZMcBride

On Oct 9, 2014 8:08 AM, "MZMcBride" &lt;z(a)mzmcbride.com&gt; wrote: If everything here comes together, centralizing templates may be not such a hot idea. The reason being, if we externalise style as the rfc proposes, and externalize logic in Lua modules, a large part of what is left is localization, which logically belongs on the local wiki - if we find a good way to centralize style and modules obviously. I realize that it's not everything that's left, there is also the markup structure obviously, which is often a large part of a template, or sometimes even all of the template, and splitting style off to a central wiki while keeping the templates to which the style applies local seems off as well. It is something to maybe keep in mind though, and give some further thought. I'd like to note that I'm really happy with this thread by the way. Jon fixing the mess we leave behind on our on wiki template work obviously doesn't scale. But Jon and others in development taking the lead through some edits, so people become more aware of that mobile is, actually, a thing, and how to deal with that with regard to styling could work. --Martijn.

Hello, I took the liberty to take this idea and created a sample change for MobileFrontend: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/166089/ With this patch you would be able to click "Mobile preview" right next to the "Show preview" button. In a new tab you will see the parsed content of your edit in the mobile skin. I like the whole idea of a mobile preview for desktop editors, so maybe, we can reach this in any way :) Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards Florian -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikitech-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Brion Vibber Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014 00:14 An: Wikimedia developers Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}} On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson &lt;jrobson(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards. Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content and style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles forever. I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend and put it on the agenda for next week's RfC. I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will look on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing... -- brion _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

On 07/10/14 22:17, Isarra Yos wrote: Er, that should have probably been {{edit protected}}, not request edit, sorry.