Now that I've blamed everyone except for myself, I would like to suggest
that we stop pointing fingers and get down to brass tacks.
My question for both the designers and the free font advocates is: Are
there any free fonts that are...
1. widely installed (at least on Linux systems)
2. easily readable and not distractingly ugly
3. would not be mapped to by the existing stack anyway (i.e. are not simply
clones or substitutes for popular commercial fonts)
If so, I think they deserve at least as much consideration as Georgia and
Helvetica Neue.
Ryan Kaldari
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 9:07 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
Frankly, I think there has been a large degree of
intransigence on both
sides. The free font advocates have refused to identify the fonts that they
want to be considered and why they should be considered other than the fact
that they are free, and the designers have refused to take any initiative
on considering free fonts. The free fonts that I know have been considered
are:
* DejaVu Serif. Conclusion: Widely installed, but horribly ugly and looks
nothing like the style desired by the designers.
* Nimbus Roman No9 L. Conclusion: Basically a clone of Times. Most Linux
systems map Times to Nimbus Roman No9 L, so there is no advantage to
specifying "Nimbus Roman No9 L" rather than "Times" (which also maps
to
fonts on Windows and Mac).
* Linux Libertine. Conclusion: A well-designed free font that matches the
look of the Wikipedia wordmark. Unfortunately, it is not installed by
default on any systems (as far as anyone knows) but is bundled with
LibreOffice as an application font. If MediaWiki were using webfonts, this
would likely be the serif font of choice rather than Georgia, but since we
are relying on pre-installed fonts, it would be rather pointless to list it.
* Liberation Sans. Conclusion: Essentially a free substitute for Arial.
Like Nimbus Roman, there is no advantage to specifying "Liberation Sans"
instead of "Arial" (which is at the bottom of the sans-serif stack) since
Linux systems will map to Liberation Sans anyway, while other systems will
apply Arial.
As to proving the quality of Georgia and Helvetica Neue, I don't think the
designers have done that, but I also haven't seen any evidence from the
free font advocates concerning the quality of any free fonts. So in my
view, both sides of the debate have been delinquent.
Ryan Kaldari
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Greg Grossmeier <greg(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
<quote name="Steven Walling"
date="2014-02-15" time="16:08:41 -0800">
On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Greg Grossmeier
<greg(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> <quote name="Federico Leva (Nemo)" date="2014-02-15"
time="22:52:31
+0100">
> > And surely, before
WMF/"MediaWiki" tell the world that no free fonts
> > of good quality exist, there will be some document detailing exactly
> > why and based on what arguments/data/research the numerous free
> > alternatives were all rejected? Free fonts developers are an
> > invaluable resource for serving Wikimedia projects' content in all
> > languages, we shouldn't carelessly slap them in their face.
>
> I just skimmed the entire thread again, and yes, this has been
requested
> a few times but no one from the WMF Design
team has responded with
that
analysis
(or if would respond with an analysis). The first time it was
requested the person was told to ask the Design list, then the next
message CC'd the design list, but no response on that point.
I don't see much on
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Typography_refresh
nor it's talk page. Nor
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Design/Typography
There wasn't an answer because the question is a fundamental
misunderstanding of the way CSS works and options that are within our
reach. The question isn't "are there good free fonts?" the question is
"can
we deliver good free fonts to all users?".
I'll try to help the UX team
document the answer better.
Thanks.
I may be part of the misunderstanding-of-how-things-work-in-font-land
contingent. Advice/clarity appreciated.
Greg
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