I added this issue to IA-upload tool on github: https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/14
Unfortunately, the new PDF > DJVU conversion is useless, as it loses too much quality. Can we find a solution? The IA-Upload tool is a great asset for the whole international community, and it's very simple to teach librarians to upload stuff on IA and then use it to port it on Commons and Wikisource. But when they upload new stuff on IA, we don't have the IA djvu anymore. So the tool converts the original PDF to a new DJVU, and this is the part of the process that is failing.
I can think of 2 solutions: * integrate this script from Alex brollo into the tool: https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Progetto:Bot/Programmi_ in_Python_per_i_bot/jp2todjvu.py the script creates a good quality djvu * have a toggle/top-down menu which allow the user to use directly the PDF.
Andrea
My tool is very rough, and some recent tests show that is not sufficiently generalized - it fails into some IA items; so I thing that it can considered simply a proof that a tool, that uses IA jp2 images (that are shown into the IA viewer IMHO) and djvy_xml can be merged into a high-quality djvu file.
Alex brollo
2017-01-24 12:03 GMT+01:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
I added this issue to IA-upload tool on github: https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/14
Unfortunately, the new PDF > DJVU conversion is useless, as it loses too much quality. Can we find a solution? The IA-Upload tool is a great asset for the whole international community, and it's very simple to teach librarians to upload stuff on IA and then use it to port it on Commons and Wikisource. But when they upload new stuff on IA, we don't have the IA djvu anymore. So the tool converts the original PDF to a new DJVU, and this is the part of the process that is failing.
I can think of 2 solutions:
- integrate this script from Alex brollo into the tool:
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Progetto:Bot/Programmi_in_ Python_per_i_bot/jp2todjvu.py the script creates a good quality djvu
- have a toggle/top-down menu which allow the user to use directly the
PDF.
Andrea
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Hi,
The quality of the result depends of paramaters. I use Abby FineReader, and I use the high quality possible, which gives good quality DjVu, but of high volume. It is always a trade-off between quality and volume.
Regards,
Yann
2017-01-24 12:03 GMT+01:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
I added this issue to IA-upload tool on github: https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/14
Unfortunately, the new PDF > DJVU conversion is useless, as it loses too much quality. Can we find a solution? The IA-Upload tool is a great asset for the whole international community, and it's very simple to teach librarians to upload stuff on IA and then use it to port it on Commons and Wikisource. But when they upload new stuff on IA, we don't have the IA djvu anymore. So the tool converts the original PDF to a new DJVU, and this is the part of the process that is failing.
I can think of 2 solutions:
- integrate this script from Alex brollo into the tool:
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Progetto:Bot/Programmi_in_ Python_per_i_bot/jp2todjvu.py the script creates a good quality djvu
- have a toggle/top-down menu which allow the user to use directly the
PDF.
Andrea
Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
—sam
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017, at 02:05 AM, Yann Forget wrote:
Hi,
The quality of the result depends of paramaters.
I use Abby FineReader, and I use the high quality possible, which gives good quality DjVu, but of high volume. It is always a trade-off between quality and volume.
Regards,
Yann
2017-01-24 12:03 GMT+01:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
I added this issue to IA-upload tool on github:
Unfortunately, the new PDF > DJVU conversion is useless, as it loses too much quality. Can we find a solution?
The IA-Upload tool is a great asset for the whole international community, and it's very simple to teach librarians to upload stuff on IA and then use it to port it on Commons and Wikisource. But when they upload new stuff on IA, we don't have the IA djvu anymore. So the tool converts the original PDF to a new DJVU, and this is the part of the process that is failing. I can think of 2 solutions:
- integrate this script from Alex brollo into the tool: https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Progetto:Bot/Programmi_in_Python_per_i_bot/jp...
the script creates a good quality djvu
- have a toggle/top-down menu which allow the user to use directly the PDF.
Andrea
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On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
AFAIU, Yann is using ABBYY finereader to generate a djvu and then uploads
it directly to Commons. So outside of our ia-upload tool.
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
Yes. If the Djvu quality is much lower than the PDF there's no reason to use the djvu over the pdf :-(
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
Please ;-)
Aubrey
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017, at 03:27 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
__
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
AFAIU, Yann is using ABBYY finereader to generate a djvu and then uploads it directly to Commons. So outside of our ia-upload tool.
Ah, okay. So if it could be done in the tool, that'd be nicer.
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
Yes.
If the Djvu quality is much lower than the PDF there's no reason to use the djvu over the pdf :-(
Are we saying that we *never* want to use the IA PDF? That if there's a DjVu we use it, and if there isn't we generate our own DjVu from the JP2 and djvu.xml files? Or should the tool user make this call and we give them a drop-down list of "PDF only", "Generate DjVu from PDF", and "Generate DjVu from original scans" with a note about the last of these being higher quality but slower?
I think I'm in favour of just generating a high-quality DjVu and making it simpler for the end user. But we want to be flexible too. jayantanth mentioned[1] that he'd like to be able to just upload the PDF for example.
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
Please ;-)
I can try! :-)
Aubrey
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On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
Are we saying that we *never* want to use the IA PDF? That if there's a DjVu we use it, and if there isn't we generate our own DjVu from the JP2 and djvu.xml files? Or should the tool user make this call and we give them a drop-down list of "PDF only", "Generate DjVu from PDF", and "Generate DjVu from original scans" with a note about the last of these being higher quality but slower?
I think I'm in favour of just generating a high-quality DjVu and making it simpler for the end user. But we want to be flexible too. jayantanth mentioned https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/15 that he'd like to be able to just upload the PDF for example.
Ideally, a menu is perfect, with the "default" of the best solution :-) Right now, unfortunately, the djvu is not sufficient quality, when processed from a PDF.
2017-01-25 8:40 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017, at 03:27 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
AFAIU, Yann is using ABBYY finereader to generate a djvu and then uploads it directly to Commons. So outside of our ia-upload tool.
Ah, okay. So if it could be done in the tool, that'd be nicer.
Yes, it is a question of settings.
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
Yes. If the Djvu quality is much lower than the PDF there's no reason to use the djvu over the pdf :-(
DjVu has to advantages over PDF: better compression, so small files for
the same content, and better management of the text layer. Over if the compression is too high, the quality is not good. It is a question of a compromise between quality and size.
Yann
Are we saying that we *never* want to use the IA PDF? That if there's a DjVu we use it, and if there isn't we generate our own DjVu from the JP2 and djvu.xml files? Or should the tool user make this call and we give them a drop-down list of "PDF only", "Generate DjVu from PDF", and "Generate DjVu from original scans" with a note about the last of these being higher quality but slower?
I think I'm in favour of just generating a high-quality DjVu and making it simpler for the end user. But we want to be flexible too. jayantanth mentioned https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/15 that he'd like to be able to just upload the PDF for example.
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
Please ;-)
I can try! :-)
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By now IA pdf too are very compressed, sometimes too much - the result being impredictable; the problem is, that viewer doesn't uses djvu nor pdf IMHO, so the quality of pdf (and of resulting djvu by pdf2djvu) doesn't mirror at all the quality of viewer images.
The IA pdf needs a good review before upload it into Commons.
There are subltle advantages using djvu instead of pdf, i.e. fixing errors into source file (adding/deleting/moving pages, manipulating text layer); djvu is a great "wiki" format since it is *open*.
Alex
2017-01-25 11:35 GMT+01:00 Yann Forget yannfo@gmail.com:
2017-01-25 8:40 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017, at 03:27 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
AFAIU, Yann is using ABBYY finereader to generate a djvu and then uploads it directly to Commons. So outside of our ia-upload tool.
Ah, okay. So if it could be done in the tool, that'd be nicer.
Yes, it is a question of settings.
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
Yes. If the Djvu quality is much lower than the PDF there's no reason to use the djvu over the pdf :-(
DjVu has to advantages over PDF: better compression, so small files for
the same content, and better management of the text layer. Over if the compression is too high, the quality is not good. It is a question of a compromise between quality and size.
Yann
Are we saying that we *never* want to use the IA PDF? That if there's a DjVu we use it, and if there isn't we generate our own DjVu from the JP2 and djvu.xml files? Or should the tool user make this call and we give them a drop-down list of "PDF only", "Generate DjVu from PDF", and "Generate DjVu from original scans" with a note about the last of these being higher quality but slower?
I think I'm in favour of just generating a high-quality DjVu and making it simpler for the end user. But we want to be flexible too. jayantanth mentioned https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/15 that he'd like to be able to just upload the PDF for example.
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
Please ;-)
I can try! :-)
Aubrey *_______________________________________________* Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why * they upload a good scan on IA * see a good book on IA, via the viewer * get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase.
Aubrey
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Alex Brollo alex.brollo@gmail.com wrote:
By now IA pdf too are very compressed, sometimes too much - the result being impredictable; the problem is, that viewer doesn't uses djvu nor pdf IMHO, so the quality of pdf (and of resulting djvu by pdf2djvu) doesn't mirror at all the quality of viewer images.
The IA pdf needs a good review before upload it into Commons.
There are subltle advantages using djvu instead of pdf, i.e. fixing errors into source file (adding/deleting/moving pages, manipulating text layer); djvu is a great "wiki" format since it is *open*.
Alex
2017-01-25 11:35 GMT+01:00 Yann Forget yannfo@gmail.com:
2017-01-25 8:40 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017, at 03:27 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
Yann, do you mean you're getting good quality DjVu generated from the PDF? Or from the original scan Jpegs?
AFAIU, Yann is using ABBYY finereader to generate a djvu and then uploads it directly to Commons. So outside of our ia-upload tool.
Ah, okay. So if it could be done in the tool, that'd be nicer.
Yes, it is a question of settings.
Aubrey: when you say directly use the PDF, you mean for the tool to copy that across to Commons and not create a DjVu?
Yes. If the Djvu quality is much lower than the PDF there's no reason to use the djvu over the pdf :-(
DjVu has to advantages over PDF: better compression, so small files for
the same content, and better management of the text layer. Over if the compression is too high, the quality is not good. It is a question of a compromise between quality and size.
Yann
Are we saying that we *never* want to use the IA PDF? That if there's a DjVu we use it, and if there isn't we generate our own DjVu from the JP2 and djvu.xml files? Or should the tool user make this call and we give them a drop-down list of "PDF only", "Generate DjVu from PDF", and "Generate DjVu from original scans" with a note about the last of these being higher quality but slower?
I think I'm in favour of just generating a high-quality DjVu and making it simpler for the end user. But we want to be flexible too. jayantanth mentioned https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/issues/15 that he'd like to be able to just upload the PDF for example.
I can have a look at adding that feature perhaps? (Anyone else working on this?)
Please ;-)
I can try! :-)
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On Thu, 26 Jan 2017, at 06:35 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why
- they upload a good scan on IA
- see a good book on IA, via the viewer
- get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase. Aubrey
Definitely!
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip? I'm thinking that they don't, and that ia-upload needs to provide the option of using any of the following sources: * .djvu * _jp2.zip (there's also _jpg.zip and _raw_jp2.zip, but I guess we don't need to use them?) * *.jpg + *.jp2 + *.png (i.e. use all images in the item, apart from _cover_image.jpg) * .pdf
Sound complete? Or are there other ways?
AFAIK, IA always produce the jp2 files by himself.
I suggest GLAMs to upload zipped folders of jpegs, so IA can do his magic and produce a book viewer and a PDF as well as the jp2.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2017, at 06:35 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why
- they upload a good scan on IA
- see a good book on IA, via the viewer
- get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase. Aubrey
Definitely!
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip? I'm thinking that they don't, and that ia-upload needs to provide the option of using any of the following sources:
- .djvu
- _jp2.zip (there's also _jpg.zip and _raw_jp2.zip, but I guess we
don't need to use them?)
- *.jpg + *.jp2 + *.png (i.e. use all images in the item, apart from
_cover_image.jpg)
Sound complete? Or are there other ways?
Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
Good to know, thanks!
So, we just stick with jp2.zip
And I love the IA magic :)
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017, at 07:40 AM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
AFAIK, IA always produce the jp2 files by himself.
I suggest GLAMs to upload zipped folders of jpegs,
so IA can do his magic and produce a book viewer and a PDF as well as the jp2.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
__
On Thu, 26 Jan 2017, at 06:35 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why
- they upload a good scan on IA
- see a good book on IA, via the viewer
- get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase. Aubrey
Definitely!
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip? I'm thinking that they don't, and that ia-upload needs to provide the option of using any of the following sources:
- .djvu
- _jp2.zip (there's also _jpg.zip and _raw_jp2.zip, but I guess we don't need to use them?)
- *.jpg + *.jp2 + *.png (i.e. use all images in the item, apart from _cover_image.jpg)
Sound complete? Or are there other ways?
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Yes, presently IA jp2.zip are the source files for all derived ones and for OCR. All the derived ones are omologous - t.i. *relative* coordinates of any element inside images are identical, even if image size varies. This means that mapping of elements (images or text) can be exported into any derived file.
Just an example: when an user crops an image from a djvu file by the excellent CropTool by Danmichaelo, coordinated of the cropping could be used to crop high-resolution jp2 or jpg image, or to get coordinates of any piece of text mapped by OCR.
Alex
2017-01-27 0:53 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au:
Good to know, thanks!
So, we just stick with jp2.zip
And I love the IA magic :)
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017, at 07:40 AM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
AFAIK, IA always produce the jp2 files by himself. I suggest GLAMs to upload zipped folders of jpegs, so IA can do his magic and produce a book viewer and a PDF as well as the jp2.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2017, at 06:35 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why
- they upload a good scan on IA
- see a good book on IA, via the viewer
- get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase. Aubrey
Definitely!
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip? I'm thinking that they don't, and that ia-upload needs to provide the option of using any of the following sources:
- .djvu
- _jp2.zip (there's also _jpg.zip and _raw_jp2.zip, but I guess we
don't need to use them?)
- *.jpg + *.jp2 + *.png (i.e. use all images in the item, apart from
_cover_image.jpg)
Sound complete? Or are there other ways?
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It's a pretty cool format. :)
I have got the beginnings of a PHP rewrite of your python script running https://github.com/Tpt/ia-upload/pull/18 (but it's not at all finished yet).
What is the best way to decrease the size of the jpgs before creating the djvu? Just scale them to ~1000 px or something? How do you handle that? (Sorry, I've read your code, but am confused...) I'm using imagemagick to do it, so any transformation it can do is easy to implement.
—Sam
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017, at 03:24 PM, Alex Brollo wrote:
Yes, presently IA jp2.zip are the source files for all derived ones and for OCR. All the derived ones are omologous - t.i. *relative* coordinates of any element inside images are identical, even if image size varies. This means that mapping of elements (images or text) can be exported into any derived file.
Just an example: when an user crops an image from a djvu file by the excellent CropTool by Danmichaelo, coordinated of the cropping could be used to crop high-resolution jp2 or jpg image, or to get coordinates of any piece of text mapped by OCR.
Alex
2017-01-27 0:53 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au:
__
Good to know, thanks!
So, we just stick with jp2.zip
And I love the IA magic :)
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017, at 07:40 AM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
AFAIK, IA always produce the jp2 files by himself.
I suggest GLAMs to upload zipped folders of jpegs,
so IA can do his magic and produce a book viewer and a PDF as well as the jp2.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Sam Wilson sam@samwilson.id.au wrote:
__
On Thu, 26 Jan 2017, at 06:35 PM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
The problem for me is that librarians and other people who are genuinely interested in Wikisource and IA don't understand why
- they upload a good scan on IA
- see a good book on IA, via the viewer
- get an horrible djvu on Wikisource.
This is the issue we should try to solve, otherwise we will lose a potential important ally, content and new userbase. Aubrey
Definitely!
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip? I'm thinking that they don't, and that ia-upload needs to provide the option of using any of the following sources:
- .djvu
- _jp2.zip (there's also _jpg.zip and _raw_jp2.zip, but I guess we don't need to use them?)
- *.jpg + *.jp2 + *.png (i.e. use all images in the item, apart from _cover_image.jpg)
Sound complete? Or are there other ways?
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Sam Wilson, 27/01/2017 00:10:
On a related note: most (all?) IA-scanned books have e.g. *_jp2.zip files containing all the original scan images, but is there any standard for user-uploaded books? Like your librarians above, I assume they're uploading individual jpg/png files? Do these get combined into a single zip?
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:DjVu_files#The_Internet_Archive covers this.
Nemo
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