Henry H. Tan-Tenn wrote: The problem is: he has been making annoying edits on wikipedias that do not have any current users. He removed all the interlanguage links from one, and replaced the standard boilerplate text with his own message and email address. When Angela fixed this, he reverted her. This is just one example of an ongoing pattern of difficult behavior. He is one of the main factors forcing us to pursue a policy locking or closing small wikis, which is of course ironic, since he is an activist for small language wikis. He and I had a partly constructive dialogue about these issues earlier today in IRC, and I am hopeful that some compromise can be worked out. I admire his energy and enthusiasm, and I find him to be very bright. But there have been several incidents that are just problematic to say the least (look up the unresolved issue of sockpuppets for example), and his hostility and personal attacks against people who are highly respected in the community don't help at all. I took this action at a global level rather than at an individual project level, because that's where the problem has arisen. If you want him to be able to edit at zh-min-nan, then that is enough for me. He can do that. If anyone wants to vouch for him anywhere else (in an active project), email me and it will be done. --Jimbo

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales(a)wikia.com> wrote: "annoying edits" are not grounds for banning on ANY Wikipedia. Do they violate policy? Not that I can see. Do they disrupt the workings? Hah! There are no workings. Replacing boilerplate text in English with text in the target language may be annoying to YOU, but to speakers of that language it is more likely to be seen as a gesture which seeks to invite them to participate and make them more comfortable. As I noted before, I am not 100% sure of the things I wrote in articles on bo: or sq: (but I didn't write hundreds of articles, and I know they're at least not totally gibberish), but unless I note otherwise for any other text I post, I do not have any doubt that it is 100% correct (unless it's not grammatically, in which case I can easily do some fact-checking before posting) Perhaps we should show these people the edit you are talking about? http://fj.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=1459 As you can clearly see, compared to the version that was there previously, it is preferrable because there is actually content IN THE TARGET LANGUAGE (if you wish to assert it is somehow incorrect, I would respectfully request that you confirm that beforehand with a professional translator or areal linguist unless you claim to speak the language yourself and can offer an explanation or correction) If you found the removal of interwiki links (which wasn't intentional - I just removed all existing text and replaced it with Fijian content, not intending to remove interwiki links) to be a problem, yet rather than fixing it you complained instead, perhaps you need to review the basic principles of Wikipedia: you can fix anything somebody else messes up. In fact, NOBODY tried to change anything on the page except to add the article count, which I did not revert. In fact, I WAS THE ONE TO ADD THE BOILERPLATE TEXT AND INTERWIKI LINKS BACK because Jimbo was pissed. However Angela did indeed revert a contribution on another Wikipedia, although in that case it did not contain my e-mail address (and again, how is the e-mail address against policy? quite a few Wikipedias, including inactive ones, do that already). Since she simply specified in the edit summary that it was "vandalism", I reverted her edits with an edit summary "isibusi vandalism" - she had removed legitimate, target-language content and replaced it with content in English. Clearly, the Wikipedian thing to do if you're irritated over the fact that somebody has removed the interwiki links in a page is to re-add them, rather then revert completely, and if it occurs again *and* it turns out to be an established user from another Wikipedia, rather than looking to ban that user from that project you should make a note on the talkpage. As you can well see, now the mainpage at http://ve.wikipedia.org/ has now had the links added AS WELL AS a bit of Tshivenda text, with an internal link to an article in Venda (currently the only article). If the article is deleted and the mainpage is reverted NOW, the only possible explanation would be that people don't like Venda, and for this reason I don't think it will happen. An "ongoing pattern of difficult behaviour"? Let's see, other than that what did I do? I have been accused of: 1. Terrorising the Kashmiri Wikipedia with one sockpuppet, then using another sockpuppet to reconcile and gain adminship, then the day after I got in trouble, registering a gazillion more sockpuppets. Supposedly all these users have the same IPs and passwords as me, but I still highly doubt that. 2. Replacing almost every single article on the Toki Pona Wikipedia with a copyvio notice. This has already been discussed extensively, and unlike #1 on this list, I actually did do it. 3. Adding en: to a list of inactive Wikis, reverting its removal by an anon (note, an anon) twice, and then reverting its removal by Danny once. It may have been a "silly game", but nevertheless the reasons I gave for its presence on the list make perfect sense. I was subsequently banned from all projects (for 24 hours according to Danny, however it was actually a few hours more) against policy by Danny (when I asked him what he did wrong, he actually said "you tell me" and refused to tell what I had done wrong OR cite policy). 4. Helping small Wikipedias with various tasks, for example small cleanup tasks, removing vandalism and spam, etc. 5. Translating "directory" content for the mainpages of a few dead or inactive Wikipedias. 6. Creating logos for a number of Wikipedias, in some cases on request but in others I actually seeked out somebody from the Wikipedia and told them the service was available. 7. Trying to raise awareness of the inactive Wikipedia projects among their language communities via e-mail, postings in forums, and instant messaging (so far no phonecalls or snailmail), with a very low response rate. I don't see how this amounts to an "ongoing pattern of difficult behavior" unless you just plain hate me and think everything I do is "difficult", although I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. The two actions which you cited actually occured AFTER such actions had reached their climax, and were in fact almost solely because of what you were doing. I have been attacked privately by more than one "highly respected" community member. What this says to me is that they are more cowardly. Again, I think this is more of a perceived problem than an actual one. Oh, I can vouch for myself on all projects except tokipona:. :p In addition I have recently made numerous edits to a few non-English Wikipedias where I wrote original content or made significant changes. I find it quite upsetting that with each language I want to edit, somehow this amounts to a claim that I speak the language. I claim only to speak English and Other. Mark

But locking a Wikipedia doesn't disrupt the workings? As I noted before, the removal of interlanguage links was purely unintentional. 1. It does make sense in these languages. 2. When on earth did I admit I don't speak these languages? 3. It's more helpful than a paragraph of what might as well be a bunch of squiggles. No, it's not. It's copied from http://www.dac.gov.za/about_us/cd_nat_language/national_lang_service/nation… Hmm. Let's see. If you'll read the logs of the chat, Dori apparently agreed with the rationale and the only reason he asked me to stop was a fear that I was going to create a lot when in fact I only created a few. Does this not tell you something about your incompetence when it comes to individual incidents? Oh? Who might that be? And what did they tell you it means? Because if it has you so upset (don't say "I'm not upset" because you are), I would be glad to work things out with them and inevitably it would either come out that they speak some Fijian from an alternate universe, or they told you what it means in real Fijian and you got upset about it for no particular reason. And if we have a Fijian-speaking user, why on earth did we have not even a shred of content in Fijian? Other Wikipedias where we have users but they're not interested at least have a short paragraph in the target language either welcoming them, telling them waht Wikipedia is, inviting them to contribute, etc... "Wikipedia Tshivenda" is clearly about Wikipedia. Or do you have word from some phantom Venda-speaking user that Wikipedia is Venda for "three-eared flying monkeys"? Hmm, and how do you know what that says? You know Kwanyama? In that case, I'm sure we can discuss this and we'll reach a conclusion that either we are talking about a different "Kwanyama", or, well, you won't really be able to speak it at all because it's not "a few odd words" I picked up in the language. Or is it that you've asked a Kwanyama-speaking user? There is no article at http://te.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tshumelo_ya_Nyambo_dza_Lushaka because that title is in the Venda language in the Roman alphabet rather than the Telugu language in the Telugu abugida. But if you meant the article at ve: (Remember, it's Venda, not Tenda, and it's Telugu and not Velugu), well, there is no copyright issue because, being produced by the government itself, there IS no copyright. This can easily be inferred by 1. going to the page you earlier claimed I copied teh text from and 2. noticing that the other text in Venda cites a source and bears a notice that permission was given by the publishing house, whereas the NLS one says nothing, as it was written originally by the government, for the people and has never been distributed for profit. I am not happy to contribute copyright violations in any language. Well, I am, but it's illegal and it might hurt Wikipedia, so I wouldn't. After people accused me of being stupid (and that's just one "respected community member". not you though; I'd not expect you to say that) for my lack of knowledge of copyright law and Wikipedia policy and the fact that I did not get the correct answer from a cursory Google for answers, I find it quite ironic that you are accusing me of a copyvio in even more unquestionable situations. Whether or not languages are copyrightable has been decided in court, and not internationally, and at the time at least (not sure about now) the official Toki Pona website had a copyright notice which was ambiguous in that it could be interpreted to mean that the site was copyrighted OR that the language was copyrighted, and there was no sort of document whereby Ms Kisa released it under the terms of the GFDL... but the sort of material I posted is public domain, no questions asked, and was at no time copyrighted, which should have been apparent after a cursory Google search where you looked at the first 5 or 7 results, as I did viz Toki Pona. Mark "88 885 489 8@172 5 887280828 08789208, 42 8926807 082808@ 880 187 8 482... 8 482... 589897, 11292 81 8@08?"

"Or are you happy to contribute copyright violations as long as they are 'in the target language'?" If I were me, I'd ask Angela to apologise if she asked me to apologise. Mark On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:34:52 +0100, Jens Ropers <ropers(a)ropersonline.com> wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:55:24 +0100, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com> wrote: It's not what she asked, it's the way she asked it. Had I said the same thing in the reverse situation, you would probably be telling me I should apologise to her. And how do you know I haven't checked the copyright laws that are applicable in this case? Also, since another site based in that country similarly used them without any attribution but attributed all other works to their respective authors and sometimes gave copyright and permission notices, I think that, given the multitude of sources used by that site, it is not unreasonable to trust their judgement especially when added to the facts: It was published by a governmental organisation and was not sold but rather distributed freely. Also, if you take into account the social and political tendencies of the government in question, there is quite a different conclusion than for countries which are highly protective of government works. There is no royalty (one common reason for such measures), there is no totalitarian regime (another reason), and their economic views would not generally support such laws. If you want to tell me that it *is* illegal and show me your sources, I will be happy to put copyvio notices up myself. Mark

And people want me to apologise for things *I* have said to "well-respected Wikipedians"? I am trying now to be less abrasive, but it is a bit more difficult than you might expect since well-respected Wikipedians continue to toss personal attacks at me as they did before. (18/11/2004 [23:19:10]) <GerardM> do not be stupid (18/11/2004 [23:19:17]) <node_ue> Excuse me? (18/11/2004 [23:19:27]) <node_ue> Would you like me to paste this conversation on the mailinglist? (18/11/2004 [23:19:32]) <GerardM> it is a lame argument (18/11/2004 [23:19:44]) <node_ue> Would you like to explain that? (18/11/2004 [23:19:59]) <node_ue> Or are you going to just tell me my argument is lame like you did before, and then never tell me why? (18/11/2004 [23:20:25]) <GerardM> I do not have time at this moment, what is difficult about that ? (18/11/2004 [23:20:48]) <node_ue> Apparently you never have time, because you never explain it, yet you always tell me my arguments are lame. (18/11/2004 [23:21:18]) <node_ue> I think you have plenty of time, but you don't want to because you cannot support it, so you will just stand behind a rock and tell me how lame my argument is while you pretend to be too busy to have a rational discussion. (18/11/2004 [23:21:21]) <GerardM> I am working on stuff, and do not have the time to go on discussing things. We do not agree And seriously, the last time we had a disagreement (that time it was over e-mail), he told me my arguments were all lame, and told me I had yet to explain my feelings about the issue when I had spent at least 2 very very very long non-hostile e-mails doing exactly that. When I asked him to explain *why* they were lame, he did not respond and thus our correspondence came to an end. Mark