Is an inland language not commonly used outside the jungle areas that
Saramaccaners live in. Not a nationally widely spoken language
5% of the population of Surinam
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
So what? It's still a language unique to Surinam.
Aukan,<>>> Aucaners same situation as
3,5% of the population of Surinam.
Most of whom life in a small area ......... in the jungles.
> Definately not spoken in most of Surinam and
as the name suggest it is
not a Surinamese language.
11% of the population of Surinam. You're right that most of its
speakers are in Guyana, but 50000 of them are in Surinam which is 11%
of the population of the nation.
50000? That is a large number which I very very much doubt!
out of 700.000 speakers total, 50.000 are in Surinam. The Ethnologue's
data on Surinam comes from their field office there
), and real data, not
some estimate made by a linguist in Texas.
Only spoken by people of Indonesian background and as the name suggest it
is not a Surinamese language.
It has a longer history in Surinam than Arabic (not "Moroccan") does
in the Netherlands. In fact, what is Sranan Tongo's history in
Surinam? How long has it been spoken there? It was brought by
"immigrants" just as much as Javanese was. And also, the Javanese
spoken in Surinam is a distinct variety of Javanese, unique to
Surinam, so it IS very much a Surinamese language.
The Javanese were one of the last groups to be brought to Surinam. The
first group starting from the 17th century were African slaves. It was here
that Sranan comes from. The Javanese didn't appear untill the end of the
19th century as contract labourers after the abollishment of slavery.
It is spoken by 14% of the population, hardly a negligible figure.
Yes and they also speak Sranan.
But Sranan is not their native language. The degree of fluency in
Sranan is not constant, some Javanese speakers are very good in Sranan
while others are not.
Only spoken by people of Chinese background and as the name suggest it is
not a Surinamese language.
Chinese has nearly as long a history in Surinam as does Sranan Tongo.
In addition to that, it's spoken by 3% of the population.
No it doesn't same story as Javanese. They didn't appear untill the end of
the 19th century as contract labourers. While the slaves arrived in etc
........ you'll figure it.
Yes, but it's not at all comparable to the history of Arabic in the
Netherlands. Obviously slaves arrived in Surinam before Javanese, by a
couple of hundred years. But slaves did not speak Sranang at first,
creolisation is a process which takes at least a generation. Also,
Saramaccan and Aukan are of slave origin as well, yet you write them
off as just being spoken in jungles.
A form of Hindustani unique to Surinam, so it's a very much
"Surinamese" language, and it's spoken by a whopping 35% of the
Forgotten this in my initial assesment. It is not Hindustani. It is called
Sarnami Hindustani. And this 35% of the population also speaks Sranan.
So Sarnami Hindustani is not Hindustani? "Sarnami" is a qualifier,
"Sarnami Hindustani" is a distinct type of the more general term
"Hindustani". Hindustani applies to Hindustani as spoken in India,
Fiji, Trinidad, Surinam, and anywhere else. The thing is, language
isolates. This means that you are less likely to come into contact
with people who don't speak a language you speak, unless you seek them
out. There are actually monolingual speakers of Sarnami Hindustani,
and as I said with Javanese, there are as with any bilingual situation
differing degrees of fluency -- some Hindustani speakers will be more
fluent in Sranan than others, so you can't use a blanket statement to
say "Oh they all speak Sranang".
and Native American languages.
There are about 10.000 of those, they are not even acknowledged in the
Surinamese flag with its five points which stand for the five most important
3385 speakers total. In addition, the speakers of these languages have
a much much much longer history in Surinam than any of the other
people, they are more "Surinamese" than Indians, Chinese, Javanese,
Blacks, Europeans, or mixed-race.
3385? did you count them?
No, this is approximate (margin of error is small though, about
50~75). This is not a count of native americans in surinam, it is of
people speaking Native American languages, which is a different number
as many Native Americans are monolingual in Sranan, Saramaccan, or
"Five most important ethnicities" is a
judgement passed by the ruling
elites. Do you think the Native Americans would agree that they're not
I don't know. Never met them in my four years there as they all live in
densely forested remote areas. So that figure could be plus or minus a lot.
In my time in Surinam I remember 10.000 in my textbooks.
These are just as much "Surinamese" as Sranan.
No they are not. Sranan is what binds most of the population together with
Dutch .... so what is next you are going to call Moroccan a Dutch language
because people in the Netherlands speak Moroccan? Or Dutch a Thai language
because there are Dutch people in Thailand? All of these languages are not
Surinamese. They happen to be spoken in the country of Surinam yes. There is
but one Surinamese and that is Sranan Tongo.
This is a very glorified view of a language spoken by only 29% of the
population. Hindustani is spoken by more people in Surinam, actually
35%, and Dutch is spoken by 46% of the population.
Much more than 29% of the population speaks Sranan. Everybody in Paramaribo
(which makes for approx half the population) did (at least the ones I met)
plus most Surinamese in the Netherlands do (considering more than 50% of
Surinamese do not life in Surinam this is a big group).
At least the ones you met. I live in a county where a huge percentage
of the population speaks Spanish, and many of them are monolinguals.
Yet, by the nature of linguistic communities, I do not encounter them
in daily life so much. Thus, you, being only capable in Dutch, Sranan,
and English (as far as languages of Surinam -- I don't know what other
languages you might know), are among an extended network of people who
are very capable in Sranan. People who are not very capable in Sranan
are likely to form their own sociolinguistic communities that are
isolated in many ways from the community of Sranan speakers.
And don't tell me I can't know because I haven't been to Surinam. This
is just basic sociolinguistics, and it will be true in any situation
where there are two language communities in close proximity.
So while "Sranan" does indeed mean
"Surinamese", the name "Sranan" is also
used in English to distinguish it from other languages of Surinam.
Well I am not a native Oxford-English or American-English or whatever
English speaker but I still have my doubts about that.
prefer the name "Sranang Tongo" or "Sranan".
Well wikipedia is silly. In nl.wikipedia we call it Surinaams. Great
argument ain't it?
I don't dispute that the Dutch normal name is Surinaams. But the
English name is Sranang Tongo.
ethnologue ...... well the more I look at it the
more I am wondering about
the way they get their data.
Depending on the area of the world, they might get it from a trusted
external source, or from a field office. In the case of Surinam, they
get it from their Surinam field office, a group of people actually in
surinam working on the languages of Surinam, who are definitely more
qualified than you to make such judgements.
See this as well: A Google search for "Sranang Tongo" turns up 744
pages in English
while a search for "Surinamese language" turns up only 74.
Even the CIA factbook has "Sranang Tongo".
<>Well, you're one person, and "rusty
I admit though" is not comforting
at all. And what about Papiamento??
How comforting is it for me to see you requesting many languages you never
spoke or heard of? If we go in that road of argumenting. My 4 years in
Surinam are a lot more comforting. And no I do not speak Papiamentu.
What the hell? How many languages have I requested in my ENTIRE
LIFE??? Sicilian, Friulian, and Ligurian. THAT IS ALL. 3 languages. A
whopping 3 languages. With Sicilian and Friulian, I had native
speakers who expressed interest BEFORE the Wikipedias were created.
Both were created, are now active, and scn.wiki has over 1000
That is not the impression I got when I look at your activity on the meta
page and when I looked at the developers reaction when you came in to ask
for new wiki's to be created.
Activity on Requests for new languages is NOT the same as submitting a
lot of requests. Most of my activity is response to others' requests.
Scepticism on the part of Tim Starling is due to a previous extended
flamewar about Friulian, a couple of years ago, which was primarily
because even though I was working with a native speaker, they didn't
post to the list.
Who decides if wikipedias get created? You? It
sometimes seems like it.
You know very well it isn't me.
Precisely but your reactions on this list and elsewhere always show that
you feel you should be the one who is deciding. 6 people support NDS-NL
among which 2 native speakers. And you oppose and because you oppose you
feel you can obstruct the whole progress because your "demands" weren't
Frankly I am getting a littlebit tired of your "every language has to go by
me" attitude. You are doing lots of good work in the languagefield. But
destroying it by your behaviour.
No, I don't feel that I should be the one deciding. But the process is
one of community discussion, and any community member has the right to
express their opinion. "every language has to go by me" attitude? What
the hell??!? A language obviously doesn't need my blessing to get a
Wikipedia created, and I don't think it should be the case, but I as
everybody else in the community have a right to express my opinion on
each language. So stuff it.
Yes and you are expressing your opinion so vehemently and so dominantly
that everybody seems to stay away from the meta languagepage and any other
language related discussion because they do not want to have to deal with
you it seems. On the stuffing it matter ....... I am actually eating at the
moment ..... so yes I am stuffing it thanks ;)
"Everybody seems to stay away"... is that why Scott Gall,
Naziismisntcool, Haaflimbo, and so many other people post so often to
the meta requests page? Only one of the requests on there (Ligurian)
was filed by me, the rest were filed by others... that doesn't amount
to little activity, there are like 30 or 40 requests.
It's the decision of the developers, ultimately,
although if a board member
or somebody else high up in the organisational structure decides it should
be created, the developer will usually create it for them.
So maybe I should go to a board member instead of discussing with you here!
Good alternative indeed. Thanks for your understanding.
Asking a board member is not an "alternative" for community
discussion. Community discussion, and resolution of outstanding
issues, is nessecary before the creation of any new Wikipedia.
On the talkpage, Angela implied in one of her comments that as long as
there is an opposing vote, there needs to be a community discussion to
observe objections and explore solutions before it can be created.
I have a right to express my opinion on any language. So please, let
me express my opinion.
So that means that if one person is against something and a lot of people
are in favour. That one person can stop the other persons from getting
something? I am sure Angela never said that. It just doesn't sound like
No, it does not mean they can stop the group. But it means that
instead of the Wikipedia being created right away, there needs to be
an extended discussion of the issues that have been raised.
It's very arrogant of you to be so sure Angela never said that when
you haven't read everything she's ever said.
Quote: "Requests that have significant objections to them, meaning
they can not yet be created. No proposed code should be counted as an
This means that any request with a significant objection cannot be
created. A significant objection can be defined in different ways, my
guess is one that gives a logical reason instead of like the one Scott
Gall gave that says that Balinese people don't deserve a Wikipedia
because of their treatment of Schapelle Corby.